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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
True, but with Frank Castle it can change, vets of Iraq have a lot in common with Vietnam vets.

The problem with Magneto, though, is you need to have him go through an ordeal because he's Jewish, so as to fuel his Anti-Human sentiment. Unless they copped out and just had his parents as Holocaust survivors...


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why comics deserve to be called inmature.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:19 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
True, but with Frank Castle it can change, vets of Iraq have a lot in common with Vietnam vets.

The problem with Magneto, though, is you need to have him go through an ordeal because he's Jewish, so as to fuel his Anti-Human sentiment. Unless they copped out and just had his parents as Holocaust survivors...


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why comics deserve to be called inmature.

What? There was really nothing in that post.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:22 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
What? There was really nothing in that post.


There was 'ziller, although to be clear, it wasn't an attack against Brooklyn.

The idea that comic book characters should be ageless, and that inmensely important events in a those characters' lives can be perfectly changed at the whims of writers and fans that "don't want to see them die" is why this medium deserves to be refered to as inmature.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:31 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
What? There was really nothing in that post.


There was 'ziller, although to be clear, it wasn't an attack against Brooklyn.

The idea that comic book characters should be ageless, and that inmensely important events in a those characters' lives can be perfectly changed at the whims of writers and fans that "don't want to see them die" is why this medium deserves to be refered to as inmature.


I'm pretty sure (like 101% sure) you mean immensely and immature, not inmensely and inmature.

I don't mind if Punisher's origin is changed, if you reread my post I say it's fine. The problem with Magneto is that his motivation is preventing the Holocaust happening with Mutants in camps, not Jews, and not having him live through the holocaust would weaken his drive and change the character.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
I'm pretty sure (like 101% sure) you mean immensely and immature, not inmensely and inmature.


Hey, I can sexually abuse the english language once in a while too !

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
I don't mind if Punisher's origin is changed, if you reread my post I say it's fine.


Duderino........that is not what I said AT ALL.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
The problem with Magneto is that his motivation is preventing the Holocaust happening with Mutants in camps, not Jews, and not having him live through the holocaust would weaken his drive and change the character.


Simply put:

No comic book character's origin should ever be retconned................EVER

That's it, that applies for Punisher, Magneto, and everyone else.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:40 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:

Simply put:

No comic book character's origin should ever be retconned................EVER

That's it, that applies for Punisher, Magneto, and everyone else.


Why not? I mean, according to the hero with 1000 faces any new characters would just be pastiches of the old characters, so why not just skip a step and keep the names while updating the characters for new readers. The original Batman fans are dead now, so why can't he be modified for new readers without being remade as a new named character with the same attributes.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:42 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
No comic book character's origin should ever be retconned................EVER

I agree, but at the same time, I don't think comic book characters should permanently die either, granted they're meant to exist in an on-going comic universe.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
The original Batman fans are dead now,

A little off with the math there, but alright.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
The original Batman fans are dead now,

A little off with the math there, but alright.[/quote]

Okay, at the very least they are well into their 70s, probably 80s and the average life span in America is 77 years... meaning that the average reader in 1939 is dead now (assuming that they were roughly 5 when they started reading Batman).

Obviously there are people alive who were alive then... but my point is still pretty valid, heroes change and evolve as their readers change and evolve.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:55 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Why not? I mean, according to the hero with 1000 faces any new characters would just be pastiches of the old characters, so why not just skip a step and keep the names while updating the characters for new readers. The original Batman fans are dead now, so why can't he be modified for new readers without being remade as a new named character with the same attributes.


Because it's fucking childish indulgence on our part, it reflects our inability and our unwillingness to deal with essential aspects of life, we cannot, I repeat, WE CANNOT ever even pretend comics are on the same level as film and literature for as long as we choose to ignore age and death.

Godziller66 wrote:
I agree, but at the same time, I don't think comic book characters should permanently die either, granted they're meant to exist in an on-going comic universe.


What are you so afraid of ?

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
my point is still pretty valid, heroes change and evolve as their readers change and evolve.


What is happening with heroes in comic books is anything BUT evolution Brooklyn, if heroes never get old, if they never die, and if time never passes, then what the fuck changes ?

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Last edited by feliciano182 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:57 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:

Because it's fucking childish indulgence on our part, it reflects our inability and our unwillingness to deal with essential aspects of life, we cannot, I repeat, WE CANNOT ever even pretend comics are on the same level as film and literature for as long as we choose to ignore age and death.


I'm going to cut you off here... there is a difference between Superhero comics and comics in general. For crying out loud, you read Scalped! You know comics deal with these things! It's just the cape and codpiece crowd that doesn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:58 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Why not? I mean, according to the hero with 1000 faces any new characters would just be pastiches of the old characters, so why not just skip a step and keep the names while updating the characters for new readers. The original Batman fans are dead now, so why can't he be modified for new readers without being remade as a new named character with the same attributes.


Because it's fucking childish indulgence on our part, it reflects our inability and our unwillingness to deal with essential aspects of life, we cannot, I repeat, WE CANNOT ever even pretend comics are on the same level as film and literature for as long as we choose to ignore age and death.

There's age and death in comics. The entire medium isn't comprised of the Marvel and DC universes, you know.

feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
I agree, but at the same time, I don't think comic book characters should permanently die either, granted they're meant to exist in an on-going comic universe.


What are you so afraid of ?

Not sure what you're getting at, but I side firmly with Morrison on this one. Batman, Superman, and the like are essentially gods we've created. What would be the point in killing them?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:26 am 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
I'm going to cut you off here... there is a difference between Superhero comics and comics in general. For crying out loud, you read Scalped! You know comics deal with these things! It's just the cape and codpiece crowd that doesn't.


Godziller66 wrote:
There's age and death in comics. The entire medium isn't comprised of the Marvel and DC universes, you know.


I knew I should've left "mainstream comics" written.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Not sure what you're getting at, but I side firmly with Morrison on this one. Batman, Superman, and the like are essentially gods we've created. What would be the point in killing them?


I feel hesitant about accusing you, since you're a rational well-opinionated individual, but if I have to be honest about what I feel and think, then I have to say you're bullshitting yourself and finding support in Morrison.

I mean, really 'ziller ? There's no point whatsoever in putting forth the idea that "gods can be die" ?

Even if they were gods we ourselves have created, which is a highly contentious opinion, they are still mortal creatures in their own universes, they still get old, and they still have to face up to the only certainty that we all have to face, which is death. If we don't have that with the characters that WE ALL AGREE are mortal, then we can't properly call mainstream comics a medium as serious and as powerful as film and literature, no matter how much the fans bitch and cry.

If we really strive to tell meaningful stories and acknowledge real stakes, real loss and real value to these stories, then time and death need to be included as well. I'm not saying Bruce Wayne should die and Batman titles be damned, not at all, I'm quite the supporter of the "legacy" idea, same for Clark Kent and Superman and for any other hero.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:31 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
they are still mortal creatures in their own universes, they still get old, and they still have to face up to the only certainty that we all have to face, which is death.

No, they don't. They're fictional beings of our creation. It's as simple as that. If we don't want them to die, they don't have to.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:40 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
No, they don't. They're fictional beings of our creation. It's as simple as that. If we don't want them to die, they don't have to.


Agreed. Superhero comics are escapist in nature... they are to convince us a man can fly, move faster than a speeding building, or leap a building in a single bound.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:40 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
No, they don't. They're fictional beings of our creation. It's as simple as that. If we don't want them to die, they don't have to.


Again:

What are you so afraid of ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:43 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
No, they don't. They're fictional beings of our creation. It's as simple as that. If we don't want them to die, they don't have to.


Again:

What are you so afraid of ?

Stop trying to imply that I'm afraid of something simply because I don't agree with you. It's disrespectful and I don't appreciate it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:46 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Stop trying to imply that I'm afraid of something simply because I don't agree with you. It's disrespectful and I don't appreciate it.


Yeah, but he can't prove you wrong... so he's going to just keep asking a question with no answer and every time you don't answer it he'll comment about how you're avoiding answering the question.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:49 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Stop trying to imply that I'm afraid of something simply because I don't agree with you. It's disrespectful and I don't appreciate it.


Then why in the name of fuck are you so rigidly opposed and shut-minded to the ideas of aging and death ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:53 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
Stop trying to imply that I'm afraid of something simply because I don't agree with you. It's disrespectful and I don't appreciate it.


Then why in the name of fuck are you so rigidly opposed and shut-minded to the ideas of aging and death ?


Because super heroes are made to do the impossible and defying death is impossible, therefore by remaining young forever they provide escapism to people who DON'T stay young forever.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:59 am 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Because super heroes are made to do the impossible and defying death is impossible, therefore by remaining young forever they provide escapism to people who DON'T stay young forever.


And thus, comics remain an inferior, immature medium, down below the greatness we've beholden (sp) for years in film and literature.

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