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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:32 pm 
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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Well, piper does bring up an interesting point: If the comic book industry supposedly has such a wealth of talent, then why are Marvel and DC still churning out stories with the same old superheroes?

Because they're timeless and awesome?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Well, piper does bring up an interesting point: If the comic book industry supposedly has such a wealth of talent, then why are Marvel and DC still churning out stories with the same old superheroes?

Because they're timeless and awesome?


Because they pay for the coke and the whores ?

Anyone who believes the comic book industry is thriving in quality is deluding himself.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:19 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Well, piper does bring up an interesting point: If the comic book industry supposedly has such a wealth of talent, then why are Marvel and DC still churning out stories with the same old superheroes?

Because they're timeless and awesome?


Because they pay for the coke and the whores ?

Anyone who believes the comic book industry is thriving in quality is deluding himself.

It's kind of hard to pin down when an entire medium is thriving in quality except in retrospect, I think, but my point was just that great stories are still being made with those characters today, so there's no reason to do something crazy like discontinuing them.

It's obvious, though, that a big factor is money and it may very well be true that more companies should try to branch out more.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
It's kind of hard to pin down when an entire medium is thriving in quality except in retrospect, I think, but my point was just that great stories are still being made with those characters today, so there's no reason to do something crazy like discontinuing them.


Nobody's talking about discontinuation, what we're talking about is that it's stupid to think the five Spider-Man books are good, as well as the five wolverine books, the five Deadpool books and the six Avenger books, the four Batman books, the four Green Lantern books. We know man, we love the characters, but unfortunately, most of the books are bad.

Now, this may be a personal opinion of mine, but I think no artistic medium, none, nada, ninguno, can thrive in quality as long as it has capitalist foundations. As long as there's a necessity to make profit (which there always is) then quality will always suffer because it will be diluted through the massified distribution of the artistic product.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:00 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
It's kind of hard to pin down when an entire medium is thriving in quality except in retrospect, I think, but my point was just that great stories are still being made with those characters today, so there's no reason to do something crazy like discontinuing them.


Nobody's talking about discontinuation, what we're talking about is that it's stupid to think the five Spider-Man books are good, as well as the five wolverine books, the five Deadpool books and the six Avenger books, the four Batman books, the four Green Lantern books. We know man, we love the characters, but unfortunately, most of the books are bad.

Now, this may be a personal opinion of mine, but I think no artistic medium, none, nada, ninguno, can thrive in quality as long as it has capitalist foundations. As long as there's a necessity to make profit (which there always is) then quality will always suffer because it will be diluted through the massified distribution of the artistic product.

Well, I'm not even gonna touch that second part, but I don't think anyone was arguing that all superhero books are great all the time. And I agree that there really don't need to be so many involving the same character.

Some of them are great, though, like Scott Snyder's Batman.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Well, I'm not even gonna touch that second part, but I don't think anyone was arguing that all superhero books are great all the time. And I agree that there really don't need to be so many involving the same character.

Some of them are great, though, like Scott Snyder's Batman.


You weren't acknowledging the industry was shit though.

And of course Scott Snyder's Batman is great, as many many other titles, unfortunately, the mediocre, or the bad titles always overwhelm the good ones.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:33 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
And of course Scott Snyder's Batman is great, as many many other titles, unfortunately, the mediocre, or the bad titles always overwhelm the good ones.


You say this like quality is an objective truth. There are books I like that other people hate, and conversely books I hate that others love. Many people professed a love for Bendis's Moon Knight and I wouldn't touch it with a 99 1/2 foot (30.3276 m) pole. And just because there are several titles for some characetrs doesn't mean they are all bad. Most of the Avengers books have been getting rave reviews, and the Four Batbooks are also getting Great to Decent praise (BnR and Batman are both getting much better reviews that Detective or Dark Knight).

Also, concerning your argument that capitalism is the reason for the weakened comic industry... sorry, you're wrong. Capitalism is the reason there is a comic industry. If a person couldn't make money on selling comics, there wouldn't be people wasting the time to make them, and the ones who did would have little to no chance at distribution.

Furthermore, look at the racks at your local comic shop... know why there are 1000s of titles each week? Capitalism has weeded out the lower sellers so the better stuff remains, wonder why books get canceled or writers get changed? It's because the companies realize they need to produce quality stuff to get returns. That's why popular writers will be on books for years while unpopular writers get an arc or two as filler.

Also... imagine a world without capitalism in comic books... have you considered that? we probably wouldn't have Preacher, Scalped, Watchmen, Walking Dead, PunisherMAX, Maus, or... you know... any comics. The big companies only take the chance on series like these ebcause they think they can make money out of it. Publishing costs would scare away any writers, and the internet is a wasteland... web comics could be around, but that's more debateable.

To blame capitalism as the problem, when it is what has allowed there to be a comics industry is just ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
You say this like quality is an objective truth. There are books I like that other people hate, and conversely books I hate that others love.


That doesn't rule out that five people can get in a room with two comics and say "this is the better comic", if you establish proper criteria, then you CAN be objective.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Also, concerning your argument that capitalism is the reason for the weakened comic industry... sorry, you're wrong. Capitalism is the reason there is a comic industry. If a person couldn't make money on selling comics, there wouldn't be people wasting the time to make them, and the ones who did would have little to no chance at distribution.


So people only do comics to get money ? No other reason at all ? Not because they love to write, draw, read comics ? Not because they love the characters ? It's all because they want a job and want to get paid ? beautiful. I mean, it can't possibly be that we live in a world where working for a living is a need rather than a privilege, do you have any idea how much a comic book writer gets paid ? Do you think they can support families on what they get paid ? Do you think it's fair that the stockholders receive more money than they do ? Is that your idea of a fair system ?

And what about that incredible phenomenon outside the US of people who do music, write books, make movies, and distribute all their work for free ? How does that happen Doctor ?!

Capitalism is the reason why quality is consistently overlooked in favor of profit, it's nothing more than insane denial to believe otherwise, when you make a product with the intention of selling it, not at cost, but at gain, then you necessarily have to meet the demands of the consumer, if the consumers' taste varies wildly among thousands of people, then the product itself has to be made as universally pandering as possible in order to sell and make a profit, as a result, artistic criteria and quality are both overlooked in favor of factors that always favor profit, there's nothing difficult about understanding that, except denial naturally.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Furthermore, look at the racks at your local comic shop... know why there are 1000s of titles each week? Capitalism has weeded out the lower sellers so the better stuff remains, wonder why books get canceled or writers get changed? It's because the companies realize they need to produce quality stuff to get returns. That's why popular writers will be on books for years while unpopular writers get an arc or two as filler.


Clearly PunisherMAX was cancelled because it was a shitty book right ? Same for X-23, or The Sinister Six ! I mean, fan favorite books getting cancelled ? Obviously those were titles with no quality whatsoever !

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Also... imagine a world without capitalism in comic books... have you considered that? we probably wouldn't have Preacher, Scalped, Watchmen, Walking Dead, PunisherMAX, Maus, or... you know... any comics. The big companies only take the chance on series like these ebcause they think they can make money out of it. Publishing costs would scare away any writers, and the internet is a wasteland... web comics could be around, but that's more debateable.


Of course, and war is always good because it brings forth technological development.

It can't possibly be that we reap the benefits out of a bad situation right ?

Also, don't bend the truth to fit your beliefs, all the comics you mentioned weren't given a green light simply because they were profitable. I objectively respect the reality of the situation and acknowledge that many books were approved because hey, who wouldn't like to see a guy with the power of "the word of God" doing insane shit with his gunfighting girlfriend and best friend irish vampire ? It can be succesful and it can sell. But Preacher, along with ALL the comics you mentioned, were made for other reasons that were considered more important than profit, to say the latter was the only motivation is disrespectful to the authors.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:00 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
So people only do comics to get money ? No other reason at all ? Not because they love to write, draw, read comics ? Not because they love the characters ? It's all because they want a job and want to get paid ? beautiful. I mean, it can't possibly be that we live in a world where working for a living is a need rather than a privilege, do you have any idea how much a comic book writer gets paid ? Do you think they can support families on what they get paid ?


Do you think they would do comics if they didn't get paid?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:02 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
feliciano182 wrote:
So people only do comics to get money ? No other reason at all ? Not because they love to write, draw, read comics ? Not because they love the characters ? It's all because they want a job and want to get paid ? beautiful. I mean, it can't possibly be that we live in a world where working for a living is a need rather than a privilege, do you have any idea how much a comic book writer gets paid ? Do you think they can support families on what they get paid ?


Do you think they would do comics if they didn't get paid?


Deffinitely not, but I don't pressume it as the only reason.

In fact, how little must they make ? I remember Josh Fialkov saying what he earned at DC wasn't enough to support his family, that he had to take jobs at television he necessarily didn't want to do.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:26 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
So people only do comics to get money ? No other reason at all ? Not because they love to write, draw, read comics ? Not because they love the characters ? It's all because they want a job and want to get paid ? beautiful. I mean, it can't possibly be that we live in a world where working for a living is a need rather than a privilege, do you have any idea how much a comic book writer gets paid ? Do you think they can support families on what they get paid ? Do you think it's fair that the stockholders receive more money than they do ? Is that your idea of a fair system ?


Well, seeing as how many comic book writers DO support their families... and I've met several who do, I don't think we should be crying about how they live in mud huts, they live middle class lives... and that's okay, so do many people. The fact that they get paid at all is a result of capitalism, though... and you don't seem to get that. With out being paid they would have no money, so they'd have to get other jobs and then wouldn't have the time to put into comics full time, it's a vicious cycle. Reasonable minds can debate the tenets of capitalism, but I think it's safe to say there are also benefits.

feliciano182 wrote:
And what about that incredible phenomenon outside the US of people who do music, write books, make movies, and distribute all their work for free ? How does that happen Doctor ?!

People do that in america too. There are all kinds of websites where people post their art with no revenue. It happens because people do things for the love of it, but if they could get paid for it... are you really telling me that they wouldn't?

feliciano182 wrote:
Capitalism is the reason why quality is consistently overlooked in favor of profit, it's nothing more than insane denial to believe otherwise, when you make a product with the intention of selling it, not at cost, but at gain, then you necessarily have to meet the demands of the consumer, if the consumers' taste varies wildly among thousands of people, then the product itself has to be made as universally pandering as possible in order to sell and make a profit, as a result, artistic criteria and quality are both overlooked in favor of factors that always favor profit, there's nothing difficult about understanding that, except denial naturally.


As a guy who reads quite a bit of vertigo you are insanely ignorant to the fact that there are a lot of comics that are very successful and don't pander. You're better than this Feli. Yes, there is a lot of pandering... but then there are books, like Morning Glories for examples, which violate norms and don't pander to any particular groups.

feliciano182 wrote:
Clearly PunisherMAX was cancelled because it was a shitty book right ? Same for X-23, or The Sinister Six ! I mean, fan favorite books getting cancelled ? Obviously those were titles with no quality whatsoever !


Again, quality is highly subjective. I like The Spirit, and I know others who do as well... but there won't be more just because we thought it was a really good movie. The sales were low and as such those series are ending... but PunisherMAX has told a very complete story, and Marjorie Liu is getting other titles, and Gail Simone is still Gail Simone. That being said, you never would have gotten those titles at all if it weren't for DC or Marvel trying to make money...


feliciano182 wrote:
It can be succesful and it can sell. But Preacher, along with ALL the comics you mentioned, were made for other reasons that were considered more important than profit, to say the latter was the only motivation is disrespectful to the authors.


One second, let me go get my eyes... they rolled out of my eye sockets and across the floor.

Alright, back. The Authors are artists and wrote the stories to tell stories they thought needed to be told. I never said they were WRITTEN to make money, but they were given wide spread publication for that matter. Would you, living in South America, have been able to get a comic written and drawn in England and just passed out on street corners for free? No, you wouldn't have. DC had the foresight to think they could wet their beaks and thus Watchmen was made avaiable around the world... thanks to capitalism.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:32 am 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Well, seeing as how many comic book writers DO support their families... and I've met several who do, I don't think we should be crying about how they live in mud huts, they live middle class lives... and that's okay, so do many people. The fact that they get paid at all is a result of capitalism, though... and you don't seem to get that. With out being paid they would have no money, so they'd have to get other jobs and then wouldn't have the time to put into comics full time, it's a vicious cycle. Reasonable minds can debate the tenets of capitalism, but I think it's safe to say there are also benefits.


When in the name of all that is holy did I claim writers and artists shouldn't get paid ? I mean, truth is like a spoon to you, huh :lol: ?

What I said was that people choose artistic endeavors for reasons they find more valid than monetary gain, without discounting the latter.

Your argument is part of the same old rhetoric that tries to forcefully "explain" that the goal of any human activity is monetary gain, when monetary gain is a matter of necessity, rather than a goal in itself, the majority of artists find art itself as the goal, but they also have to work, or else they starve, that doesn't change the causality, regardless of how you want to arrange the elements.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
People do that in america too. There are all kinds of websites where people post their art with no revenue. It happens because people do things for the love of it, but if they could get paid for it... are you really telling me that they wouldn't?


Again, that doesn't mean monetary gain is the ultimate goal, money is a necessity because capitalism isn't simply in one industry, it permeates itself all over society, again, people that involve themselves in any artistic endeavor do so because the work itself is the goal, monetary gain is also a requirement, but it doesn't have to be an end on itself.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
As a guy who reads quite a bit of vertigo you are insanely ignorant to the fact that there are a lot of comics that are very successful and don't pander. You're better than this Feli. Yes, there is a lot of pandering... but then there are books, like Morning Glories for examples, which violate norms and don't pander to any particular groups.


You know, I was doubtful of using the word "pander" instead of something like "meet the demands" or "serve", because I know it's meaning is more akin to "fan service", but I thought it was an actual word that could be used without having to recall the negative association, it was actually a mistake of mine to think that, for I meant something else.

But since you've engaged (typically) in "passive agressive" mode by calling me "insanely ignorant", then I guess it doesn't really matter anyways !

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Again, quality is highly subjective. I like The Spirit, and I know others who do as well... but there won't be more just because we thought it was a really good movie. The sales were low and as such those series are ending... but PunisherMAX has told a very complete story, and Marjorie Liu is getting other titles, and Gail Simone is still Gail Simone. That being said, you never would have gotten those titles at all if it weren't for DC or Marvel trying to make money...


Quality is subjective when you choose to see it as such, as I said, proper criteria forms the basis of ANY objective assesment, AGAIN, if five people are sitting in a room, and all agree on what makes a good comic, then an objective deffinition of quality has been formed.

To the second, after "that being said", same crap I'm gonna have to be repeating all day long:

"People that involve themselves in any artistic endeavor do so because the work itself is the goal, monetary gain is also a requirement, but it doesn't have to be an end on itself."

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Alright, back. The Authors are artists and wrote the stories to tell stories they thought needed to be told. I never said they were WRITTEN to make money


Not really, you claimed people wouldn't write comics if they didn't got paid, you yourself said as well that people use the internet to publish their work for free.

ALSO (before you see another spoon)

This does not mean I think there's a "moral superiority" to artists who give their work for free, that is a completely different topic which I appreciate not to get into.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Would you, living in South America, have been able to get a comic written and drawn in England and just passed out on street corners for free? No, you wouldn't have. DC had the foresight to think they could wet their beaks and thus Watchmen was made avaiable around the world... thanks to capitalism.


Correct me if I'm wrong please, but are you saying it would've been completely IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to distribute comics to other parts of the world unless there was monetary gain ?

What is this shit ? Are you gonna kick down the door of my closet and scream "YOU'RE PUNKED BITCH!" :lol: ?

Understand me Brooklyn, I'm not saying getting paid is a bad thing, and neither is it working for a salary, people are in every right to demand cold hard cash from their work, but it's just conservative rage to not acknowledge that profit and artistic quality don't always go hand in hand.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:20 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
What is this shit ? Are you gonna kick down the door of my closet and scream "YOU'RE PUNKED BITCH!" :lol: ?


No, but I will jump out and say that neither of is going to change the other ones mind... so... maybe we nip it in the bud here?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:11 am 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
No, but I will jump out and say that neither of is going to change the other ones mind... so... maybe we nip it in the bud here?


Pussy.

*Shakes hands*

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:14 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
No, but I will jump out and say that neither of is going to change the other ones mind... so... maybe we nip it in the bud here?


Pussy.

*Shakes hands*


Well, I figure we'll just end up recycling our points and get nowhere.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:56 am 
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...I just realized something about the original press release.

"After twenty five years, the Watchmen are classic characters whose time has come for new stories to be told."

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
...I just realized something about the original press release.

"After twenty five years, the Watchmen are classic characters whose time has come for new stories to be told."

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*Contains laughter*

Hopefully all the talent involved had the same reaction that statement as we do now....................hopefully.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:20 am 
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More from Moore.
Sorry if this has already been posted...

http://www.fastcocreate.com/1679856/ala ... g-business

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:24 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
More from Moore.
Sorry if this has already been posted...

http://www.fastcocreate.com/1679856/ala ... g-business


With the exception of "It's not going to work" I agree with pretty much everything.

Moore is going to find out soon enough how full of shit some of his fans are.

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