Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Well, seeing as how many comic book writers DO support their families... and I've met several who do, I don't think we should be crying about how they live in mud huts, they live middle class lives... and that's okay, so do many people. The fact that they get paid at all is a result of capitalism, though... and you don't seem to get that. With out being paid they would have no money, so they'd have to get other jobs and then wouldn't have the time to put into comics full time, it's a vicious cycle. Reasonable minds can debate the tenets of capitalism, but I think it's safe to say there are also benefits.
When in the name of all that is holy did I claim writers and artists shouldn't get paid ? I mean, truth is like a spoon to you, huh
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What I said was that people choose artistic endeavors for reasons they find more valid than monetary gain, without discounting the latter.
Your argument is part of the same old rhetoric that tries to forcefully "explain" that the goal of any human activity is monetary gain, when monetary gain is a matter of necessity, rather than a goal in itself, the majority of artists find art itself as the goal, but they also have to work, or else they starve, that doesn't change the causality, regardless of how you want to arrange the elements.
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
People do that in america too. There are all kinds of websites where people post their art with no revenue. It happens because people do things for the love of it, but if they could get paid for it... are you really telling me that they wouldn't?
Again, that doesn't mean monetary gain is the ultimate goal, money is a necessity because capitalism isn't simply in one industry, it permeates itself all over society, again, people that involve themselves in any artistic endeavor do so because the work itself is the goal, monetary gain is also a requirement, but it doesn't have to be an end on itself.
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
As a guy who reads quite a bit of vertigo you are insanely ignorant to the fact that there are a lot of comics that are very successful and don't pander. You're better than this Feli. Yes, there is a lot of pandering... but then there are books, like Morning Glories for examples, which violate norms and don't pander to any particular groups.
You know, I was doubtful of using the word "pander" instead of something like "meet the demands" or "serve", because I know it's meaning is more akin to "fan service", but I thought it was an actual word that could be used without having to recall the negative association, it was actually a mistake of mine to think that, for I meant something else.
But since you've engaged (typically) in "passive agressive" mode by calling me "insanely ignorant", then I guess it doesn't really matter anyways !
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Again, quality is highly subjective. I like The Spirit, and I know others who do as well... but there won't be more just because we thought it was a really good movie. The sales were low and as such those series are ending... but PunisherMAX has told a very complete story, and Marjorie Liu is getting other titles, and Gail Simone is still Gail Simone. That being said, you never would have gotten those titles at all if it weren't for DC or Marvel trying to make money...
Quality is subjective when you choose to see it as such, as I said, proper criteria forms the basis of ANY objective assesment, AGAIN, if five people are sitting in a room, and all agree on what makes a good comic, then an objective deffinition of quality has been formed.
To the second, after "that being said", same crap I'm gonna have to be repeating all day long:
"People that involve themselves in any artistic endeavor do so because the work itself is the goal, monetary gain is also a requirement, but it doesn't have to be an end on itself."Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Alright, back. The Authors are artists and wrote the stories to tell stories they thought needed to be told. I never said they were WRITTEN to make money
Not really, you claimed people wouldn't write comics if they didn't got paid, you yourself said as well that people use the internet to publish their work for free.
ALSO (before you see another spoon)
This does not mean I think there's a "moral superiority" to artists who give their work for free, that is a completely different topic which I appreciate not to get into.
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Would you, living in South America, have been able to get a comic written and drawn in England and just passed out on street corners for free? No, you wouldn't have. DC had the foresight to think they could wet their beaks and thus Watchmen was made avaiable around the world... thanks to capitalism.
Correct me if I'm wrong please, but are you saying it would've been completely IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to distribute comics to other parts of the world unless there was monetary gain ?
What is this shit ? Are you gonna kick down the door of my closet and scream "YOU'RE PUNKED BITCH!"
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Understand me Brooklyn, I'm not saying getting paid is a bad thing, and neither is it working for a salary, people are in every right to demand cold hard cash from their work, but it's just conservative rage to not acknowledge that profit and artistic quality don't always go hand in hand.
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