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 Post subject: Rorschach's Final Scene
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:58 am 
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Another thing that might be cool would be to have Walter, standing there, crying, screaming DO IT! and just have Jon raise his hand, like he is going to vaporize him, and then just lower his hand, turn and walk back towad the building. Walter gets a confused look on his face, and then explodes/vaporizes as Dr. Manhatten is walking toward the building.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:46 am 
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Mannie Bothans wrote:
Another thing that might be cool would be to have Walter, standing there, crying, screaming DO IT! and just have Jon raise his hand, like he is going to vaporize him, and then just lower his hand, turn and walk back towad the building. Walter gets a confused look on his face, and then explodes/vaporizes as Dr. Manhatten is walking toward the building.

But do we really want Rorschach to die confused with Jon's back trurned on him? I think that misses the point of Jon looking Walter in the eye as he kills him. Walter knows Jon has never seen one of his "murder victims" and he wants to force Jon to look him in the eye point blank. Plus I want Rorschach to go out angry and resolute, not befuddled. The last thing we need is to have scattered laughter in the theaters after that pivotal scene.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:49 am 
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Agreed. In one last act of unmasked, overpowering vestigal humanity, Kovacs goes out with a roar of defiance, not a quizzical "... the fuck?" before he's turned into smoking slops.

Dunno if I necessarily go along with the Jon never having seen one of his "murder victims" angle, though. I've never considered this to be the reason why Walter pulled off the mask; more that by removing it at the point of death, he regained a split-second of his own repressed humanity whilst ensuring that the spirit of Rorschach somehow survives regardless. That, and I'm sure Jon has probably stared impassively at many a 'victim' as he's disassembled them in an instant... the goon who's head he detonates in Moloch's den back in the good old days for one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:57 am 
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CLINT FLICKER wrote:
Dunno if I necessarily go along with the Jon never having seen one of his "murder victims" angle, though. I've never considered this to be the reason why Walter pulled off the mask; more that by removing it at the point of death, he regained a split-second of his own repressed humanity whilst ensuring that the spirit of Rorschach somehow survives regardless. That, and I'm sure Jon has probably stared impassively at many a 'victim' as he's disassembled them in an instant... the goon who's head he detonates in Moloch's den back in the good old days for one.

I guess I meant more of, looked into the eyes of one of his victims. Especially one that he knew so well. I'm sure he was in close proximity to others when he killed them in 'Nam, but as we know, in war all the enemy soldiers are not your friends. So its like Rorschach is showing Jon "this one won't be as easy, I'm right here and I'm in your face." Keeping his mask on allows to help Jon emotionally disconnect from the act. In a sense Rorschach deserves to die more than Kovacs, if you know what I mean.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:16 pm 
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My son was very sad at the fact that Kovacs had to die at the end of the book.

He felt sorry for him as he had an awful childhood. Nice feeling of empathy.

I tried to explain that we are asked what we would do. Who's "side" would we be on.
His feeling was that Rorschach was being true to his principles. And was being "true" to himself. I mentioned that neither Veidt nor Osterman knew of the existence of the finished journal. I told him that my feeling is that we wouldn't be reading Watchmen without it. Had it not been written, we would never have known what really happened.

Kovac's suicide proved that he could not live with letting Veidt get away with his horrible scheme. Osterman had to look into Kovac's eyes to do it, though.

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 Post subject: OT, OT.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:43 pm 
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Soupdragon wrote:
Kovac's suicide proved that he could not live with letting Veidt get away with his horrible scheme.
But (ironically) he could not only live with Truman's horrible scheme, he could idolize him for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:56 pm 
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That's because in his mind, Veidt was killing millions of American innocents (including, ironically, Hollis' murderer Derf) while Truman was killing thousands of foreigners.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:56 pm 
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This was getting good, but off topic, so I gave the topic its own thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:13 pm 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
This was getting good, but off topic, so I gave the topic its own thread.
The original post was in response to the ninety second delay, ya know, those rascally tachyons, always muddling things up.

Wow, I didn't realize that many people lived in New York, half of the city must have been at least 3.5 million people.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
Keeping his mask on allows to help Jon emotionally disconnect from the act.

I don't consider that emotion either did have or would have had any part to play in the act as far as Jon was concerned, which would have remained the case regardless of whether or not he could see the whites of Rorschach's eyes; that's wholly irrelevant. It was a preordained, predestined action that Jon had already experienced due to his unique temporal perception, and he was merely following the dictates of his existence. He had to kill Rorschach in the snow because... he'd already killed Rorschach in the snow, albeit his exact identity was unknown to him. Mask or no mask, Walter's tears of resignation or his begging for his life are futile variables that would not - could not - have provoked an emotional response in Jon at that point so as to have affected the outcome any.

The only semi-emotional concession that Jon appears to make in respect of Rorschach's death is his decision not to tell Veidt outright that Rorschach is dead. Now, I don't consider for one moment that this was done for Veidt's benefit, but more for the fact that Jon assumes that word will filter back to both Dan and, more importantly, Laurie. It's only natural that, at some point, they're going to wonder whatever became of Rorschach; learning of his sudden, bloodily violent end can only serve to upset Laurie's already fragile emotional state of mind even further, regardless of her personal feeling towards the man. Furthermore, Dan is likely to be pretty cut up by the news too and, having accepted their relationship, Jon knows that Dan's hurt will also adversely affect Laurie as she empathizes with her new lover. If Jon's feelings for Laurie were strong enough to persuade him to return from Mars, I don't consider it too much of a stretch to imagine that he would want to shield her from as much hurt as possible in his last conscious act for her benefit before he departs our galaxy, and leaves her, for evermore.


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 Post subject: Re: OT, OT.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:15 pm 
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Mannie Bothans wrote:
Soupdragon wrote:
Kovac's suicide proved that he could not live with letting Veidt get away with his horrible scheme.
But (ironically) he could not only live with Truman's horrible scheme, he could idolize him for it.


One could argue that Rorschach was in a different state of mind when he approved of Truman's bombing of Japan. Now different, he opposes a similar "end of war" solution.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:28 am 
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Maybe Jon thought that popping Kovacs is what he returned to Earth for.

to "save the world".

Veidt appeared to have done such a spiffing job, Jon hardly needed to lift a finger. :roll:

Pity it was at Rorschach. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:09 am 
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Mannie Bothans wrote:
Another thing that might be cool would be to have Walter, standing there, crying, screaming DO IT! and just have Jon raise his hand, like he is going to vaporize him, and then just lower his hand, turn and walk back towad the building. Walter gets a confused look on his face, and then explodes/vaporizes as Dr. Manhatten is walking toward the building.


I'm sorry, but that's hilarious. I can imagine Bill Murray playing Manhattan, spinning round and pulling a 'Gotcha' face.

Like many scenes from the book, it's perfect as it is.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:20 pm 
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I never understood why Dr Manhattan blew Rorshach. Couldnt he have, in theory, teleported him to another universe? Turned him into a butterfly? Maybe thats horrible. Couldnt he have wiped his mind clean? I guess all those options leave it open to a possible return, and not the bloody scene it was.

Yet I still wonder why he blew him up. Instead of, lets say, scattering his atoms over the universe.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:38 pm 
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TooDarkMark wrote:
I never understood why Dr Manhattan blew Rorshach. Couldnt he have, in theory, teleported him to another universe? Turned him into a butterfly? Maybe thats horrible. Couldnt he have wiped his mind clean? I guess all those options leave it open to a possible return, and not the bloody scene it was.

Yet I still wonder why he blew him up. Instead of, lets say, scattering his atoms over the universe.

I don't think the doc has those kinds powers. I believe he can teleport people to places he knows about, and I don't think he can turn people into different creatures or erase memories.

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 Post subject: Re: OT, OT.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:17 pm 
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BunnyCritters wrote:

One could argue that Rorschach was in a different state of mind when he approved of Truman's bombing of Japan. Now different, he opposes a similar "end of war" solution.


i just watched s01e21 of heroes again...of course its getting closer to W. each episode...

In this episode Nathan Petrelli, having doubts about the scheme to let new york blow up, consults his mother:

Mother Petrelli: But how ‘bout when Truman dropped the bombs on Japan to end the Second World War. By killing thousands he saved millions
Nathan Petrelli: This is different. We were at war…

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:23 pm 
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I posted this in the "Favorite Character?" thread. This is just my own interpretation of it:

Honestly my opinion was is that his life was over. He obsessed over finding out who plotted against the Comedian and who else was targeting masked heroes, and he found who did it and actually what benefit it did to society. That probably shook his foundation, and he really had no more direction on where to go. At least thats my perspective on it.

I also think that Rorschach understood that killing millions of innocent (or not?) lives was justified because it saved humanity. Whether or not it was temporary peace. That was probably the first time in his life were he realized you can sacrifice a few to save many.

I guess its how you approach the situation, you could view just a killing of one man a sin but I think Veidt asked those questions before plotting to use the monster and he came to the conclusion that it was the right thing to do. All men will die at some point, so does it really matter? For the human race to continue some had to die earlier than instead of waiting till old age. I guess thats part of Veidt's own beliefs of the afterlife and death, since he did have a fascination with Egyptian philosophy of an afterlife.

Anyway back to Rorschach. I knew he couldn't compromise with the killings of millions, but since that final scene had him in tears and shouting at Jon to kill him to me it leaves it open as to maybe he had to compromise.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:52 pm 
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Alexander Nevermind wrote:
I knew he couldn't compromise with the killings of millions, but since that final scene had him in tears and shouting at Jon to kill him to me it leaves it open as to maybe he had to compromise.



I am not sure that Walter's tears reflect any compromise, though. I think he sees the Veidt's plan as inherently evil, despite any explanation that might justify it. He is out the door, and seriously on his way back to civilization (he has to try and get the Owlship started, you know?).

"You know I can't let you do that."

It's over. There is no compromise. There's no pleading for Rorschach. Manhattan is going through the motions; killing sombody in the snow (the ol' predestination trip). Rorschach takes off his mask, revealing the very human Walter Kovacs, who is crying- probably a mix of the relief he feels finally able to rest and of finally having the freedom to feel "human" again, maybe one last time.

But Rorschach is still alive and well. Can you dig it?

I DO hope they keep this scene in tact and the sentiments untainted.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:00 pm 
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TooDarkMark wrote:
I never understood why Dr Manhattan blew Rorshach. Couldnt he have, in theory, teleported him to another universe? Turned him into a butterfly? Maybe thats horrible. Couldnt he have wiped his mind clean? I guess all those options leave it open to a possible return, and not the bloody scene it was.

Yet I still wonder why he blew him up. Instead of, lets say, scattering his atoms over the universe.


He has to disintegrate him into nothing but smoke and blood on the snow. Y'know... the whole abyss and nothingness?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:03 am 
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ManOWar wrote:
I am not sure that Walter's tears reflect any compromise, though. I think he sees the Veidt's plan as inherently evil, despite any explanation that might justify it. He is out the door, and seriously on his way back to civilization (he has to try and get the Owlship started, you know?).


I know throughout the graphic novel that Rorscach is obsessed with justice. So I'm curious if he thinks what Veidt did was unjust, how would he bring him to justice? Yet we still have his journal which might be published.

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It's over. There is no compromise. There's no pleading for Rorschach. Manhattan is going through the motions; killing sombody in the snow (the ol' predestination trip). Rorschach takes off his mask, revealing the very human Walter Kovacs, who is crying- probably a mix of the relief he feels finally able to rest and of finally having the freedom to feel "human" again, maybe one last time.


I agree that he does have some relief, but if the monster ceased all crimes what more does his life serve a purpose? I guess that was a reflection he had, and that his own worth is uncertain.

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I DO hope they keep this scene in tact and the sentiments untainted.


Exactly.


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