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 Post subject: Red scare
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:15 am 
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Jon killed Rorschach because he did.

He had no choice. He knew as the scene played out that this was the person he was killing in deep snow, their identity unclear. The moment Kovacs took off that mask, Jon recognized the person he killed. Simple as that. He would have recognized Rorscach. Kovacs sudden unmasking did him in. Jon remembered doing it just the same way you remember what you had for breakfast. Can you decide at dinner to have had something else for breakfast?

Neither could Jon decide not to kill Rorschach or to kill him in a different way. He recalls it happening in just that way because it happens in just that way. Jon doesn't "predict" the future or speculate on a possible time line. He remembers it.

As for Truman... he was an ass. He did not save any lives by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The firebombing of Tokyo had already killed more than the atomic bombs did and Japan was begging to surrender... to Russia.

Truman was positioning the U.S. for the cold war. If he had allowed Japan to surrender to Russia and had not demonstrated the bombs, the U.S. would not have been able to become a superpower. But to assert that Truman killed thousands to save millions is patently incorrect.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:22 am 
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Are you refrencing Truman in comparision to what Veidt did?

I'll answer if that is what you are asking.

The biggest difference, to me at least, is that this was an alien invasion, something that killed millions of humans. Yet because it was a extra terrestial somehow we become united as a race in the threat of a full invasion. This wasn't caused by any human terrorists but something not found in our world.

I always have contemplated if aliens do appear in public, what would happen to the world? Mass hysteria, chaos, destruction? Or maybe we break down our own belief barriers and start acting as one race.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:43 am 
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Alexander Nevermind wrote:
I always have contemplated if aliens do appear in public, what would happen to the world? Mass hysteria, chaos, destruction? Or maybe we break down our own belief barriers and start acting as one race.


It's a matter of scale. Brother battles brother for the last piece of cake. But stick with each other against the neighbors. But the stick with the neighbors when competing with the gang across town... but they stick with the town when pitted against another town, but stick together when competing against another state... but pull together against other countries which, as Veidt speculated, act in accord when faced with alien invasion...

But if real aliens joined us, can we not imagine just getting along in the first place without the need for a common enemy to bind us? Can't we imagine just getting along with the aliens?

I mean, imagine the technolgoy necessary to traverse the void and get here in the first place. Why would they be hostile? If we were able to build a starship and travel to some distant planet with intelligent life, would we really drop in and start terrorizing the place? That just makes no sense.

Which is why Veidt's alien plot had to be so intricate and why the coded psy-wave was so important to the story.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:41 am 
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Vynson wrote:
Alexander Nevermind wrote:
I always have contemplated if aliens do appear in public, what would happen to the world? Mass hysteria, chaos, destruction? Or maybe we break down our own belief barriers and start acting as one race.


It's a matter of scale. Brother battles brother for the last piece of cake. But stick with each other against the neighbors. But the stick with the neighbors when competing with the gang across town... but they stick with the town when pitted against another town, but stick together when competing against another state... but pull together against other countries which, as Veidt speculated, act in accord when faced with alien invasion...

But if real aliens joined us, can we not imagine just getting along in the first place without the need for a common enemy to bind us? Can't we imagine just getting along with the aliens?

I mean, imagine the technolgoy necessary to traverse the void and get here in the first place. Why would they be hostile? If we were able to build a starship and travel to some distant planet with intelligent life, would we really drop in and start terrorizing the place? That just makes no sense.

Which is why Veidt's alien plot had to be so intricate and why the coded psy-wave was so important to the story.


Excellent post. I couldn't imagine the religious boundaries that would have to be broken if aliens did join us. I think we all might have to re-analyze our own beliefs.

Well if they did want to terrorize us, I would assume it would just be out of harvesting. This planet is in the position for life to be created. The other planets in our solar system cannot create organisms because of their environments. So what if this was the last planet in the universe that had resources, whereas the home world of an alien race was nearing depletion of those sources. Maybe they have a philosophy of not caring about anyone and only want to benefit themselves so they don't become extinct, they would gladly get rid of us.

There's probably other examples of reasons why they might attack us.

The one thing we can't do is if those aliens are peaceful, we can't initiate any kind of violence towards them. Humans are fallible so it might be only a matter of time when we do something that might hurt them.

Also they could be the most intelligent species ever and would show us all kinds of things in life we may not have seen and give us new technology.

I agree with your last point on how that monster needed a psi-wave.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:56 am 
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The psi-wave was what killed everyone, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:12 am 
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Alexander Nevermind wrote:
Well if they did want to terrorize us, I would assume it would just be out of harvesting. This planet is in the position for life to be created. The other planets in our solar system cannot create organisms because of their environments. So what if this was the last planet in the universe that had resources, whereas the home world of an alien race was nearing depletion of those sources. Maybe they have a philosophy of not caring about anyone and only want to benefit themselves so they don't become extinct, they would gladly get rid of us.

It's a cookbook! IT'S A COOKBOOK!!! :D ;)

Here's a question: Even if Seymour did open the journal and present its contents, would anyone care? Veidt himself pointed out that as a witness, Rorschach is hardly "without stain." If Rorschach did manage to get back to civilization, would anyone believe him?

Who would listen to the ravings in a known lunatic's journal?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:26 am 
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Hehe

You know how many people follow those conspiracy theories on the 'Net? :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:19 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Here's a question: Even if Seymour did open the journal and present its contents, would anyone care? Veidt himself pointed out that as a witness, Rorschach is hardly "without stain." If Rorschach did manage to get back to civilization, would anyone believe him?

Who would listen to the ravings in a known lunatic's journal?


Exactly, he wouldn't have a shred of credibility. Perhaps that was why he was in tears, because even if he did go back to civilization who is he going to tell that would believe him?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:24 am 
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Rorschach needs a hug...!
hurm i wonder what the original rorschach would think of this character!

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Alexander Nevermind wrote:
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Here's a question: Even if Seymour did open the journal and present its contents, would anyone care? Veidt himself pointed out that as a witness, Rorschach is hardly "without stain." If Rorschach did manage to get back to civilization, would anyone believe him?

Who would listen to the ravings in a known lunatic's journal?


Exactly, he wouldn't have a shred of credibility. Perhaps that was why he was in tears, because even if he did go back to civilization who is he going to tell that would believe him?



The possibilities are endless as to what might happen. Which is why the ending is so brilliant! Will it blow the lid off of Veidt's plan, or not?! Boo-gity-boo!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:48 pm 
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absolutely - but saying its brilliant barely analyses it!! ;)
do you think rorschach cries because he finally realises he's ginger??

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:58 pm 
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Too far, AYB. Too far.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:59 pm 
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;)
sorry wrong thread!

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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:29 pm 
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:x Anyway...

Check out Chapter XII, pg. 21, panel 1. Veidt remarks that Rorschach is "blotting out reality," (and would you look at that smug look on his face? Ugh.).

Anyway, Veidt seems to be saying that Rorschach is trying to pursue what he thinks ought to be, rather than what is. In other words, in Veidt's opinion, this utopia he's created is absolute and Rorschach cannot change it, no matter how much he's deluded himself into thinking he can.

Comments?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:39 pm 
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I like to think he takes off the mask because he's conflicted with himself at the end. He feels he's failed as Rorshach and can't stand to look at that face. He already can't face the world as Walter Kovacs so he asks Dr. Manhattan to kill him. He cries because he won't give himself the luxury of failing.
But that's my humble opinion. . .

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:50 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
absolutely - but saying its brilliant barely analyses it!! ;)
do you think rorschach cries because he finally realises he's ginger??



I've already spoken at length about this earlier.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:52 am 
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Poncho_E wrote:
I like to think he takes off the mask because he's conflicted with himself at the end. He feels he's failed as Rorshach and can't stand to look at that face. He already can't face the world as Walter Kovacs so he asks Dr. Manhattan to kill him. He cries because he won't give himself the luxury of failing.
But that's my humble opinion. . .


That's actually a very well rounded opinion, because throughout the novel, Rorshach won't give up on finding the masked man that murdered The Comedian. He does seem to have that annoying sense of "will never give up until the very end", which in a way, is true. Because he never truly gave up.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:32 am 
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Poncho_E wrote:
I like to think he takes off the mask because he's conflicted with himself at the end. He feels he's failed as Rorshach and can't stand to look at that face. He already can't face the world as Walter Kovacs so he asks Dr. Manhattan to kill him. He cries because he won't give himself the luxury of failing.
But that's my humble opinion. . .


Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Anyway, Veidt seems to be saying that Rorschach is trying to pursue what he thinks ought to be, rather than what is. In other words, in Veidt's opinion, this utopia he's created is absolute and Rorschach cannot change it, no matter how much he's deluded himself into thinking he can.

Comments?


Great analyses!

I think its fascinating how many theories you can generate just from this last scene. I saw Curosity Inc.'s theory on his thread "Rorschach" on the comic part of the forum and I never considered something like that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:47 pm 
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yeah nice post Curious George!
i think too many films, books resort to a really obvious "inevitable" ending to stir the emotions but Moore makes his endings much more mysterious, doesn't he? i agree, rorschach can't face living because he won't compromise, even for himself. yeah and poncho, great thinking! the end is so fantastic if you consider the identity problems rorschach has
perhaps he's fearful that veidt might have properly succeeded? if he had why would America need Rorschach?! And he doesn't want to end up as just Walter Kovacs does he? So perhaps sending his journal is a resort he takes to destroy the utopia in case Veidt succeeded? And when he yells "Do it!" is he fearing that his journal wouldn't be published?
p.s. sorry ManoWar...!

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Quote:
You know how many people follow those conspiracy theories on the 'Net?


awww i find that apostrophe highly endearing

i don't know why

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