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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:12 pm 
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ROR-SHACK wrote:
Btw, am I the only one who finds the action scene when Rorschach gets framed at Jacobi's badly executed?

I thought it was fine but what did you find wrong with it, ROR-SHACK?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
I thought it was fine but what did you find wrong with it, ROR-SHACK?


I didn't say that.
(I do think that scene goes by a little too fast though)

DCR wrote:
Eg. I see no satire in Rorschach's entry to the Military Research Center.


They way it often works is that the film will set you up with something seemingly serious, and then throw something amusing into it, making you realize the film is not being completely serious. As he enters the military base, Rorschach says amusing things in a monotone I-am-a-badass voice. Jakie must have laughed a few times while recording:
"Dollar Bill got his cape stuck in a revolving door where he got gunned down."
"Even Adrian Veidt, possible homosexual, must investigate further."

That's yet another example of satire through contrast.

The movie is set up as satire from the very beginning (The McLaughlin Group, opening fight scene), so everything following is viewed from that perspective. Most of this is accomplished through the music choices. A familiar heroic theme ("Ride of the Valkyries") over Doctor Manhattan exploding people instantly, and Blake casually lighting a cigar with a freaking flamethrower and then burning a helpless soldier. The irony of "I'm Your Boogie Man" as Blake chases away the protesters and starts shooting them.

There are a few moments in the film that made me laugh out loud in theaters. That cheesy heroic shot of Nite Owl in front of the owlship and the wind blowing dramatically...and then the paper hits him. Another moment is the shot of Dan dramatically turning towards the camera as he and Laurie fly away from the fire. This is followed by a very graphic and ridiculous sex scene with a nostalgic, romantic song in the background.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:13 pm 
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ROR-SHACK wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
I thought it was fine but what did you find wrong with it, ROR-SHACK?


I didn't say that.
(I do think that scene goes by a little too fast though)

DCR wrote:
Eg. I see no satire in Rorschach's entry to the Military Research Center.


They way it often works is that the film will set you up with something seemingly serious, and then throw something amusing into it, making you realize the film is not being completely serious. As he enters the military base, Rorschach says amusing things in a monotone I-am-a-badass voice. Jakie must have laughed a few times while recording:
"Dollar Bill got his cape stuck in a revolving door where he got gunned down."
"Even Adrian Veidt, possible homosexual, must investigate further."

That's yet another example of satire through contrast.

The movie is set up as satire from the very beginning (The McLaughlin Group, opening fight scene), so everything following is viewed from that perspective. Most of this is accomplished through the music choices. A familiar heroic theme ("Ride of the Valkyries") over Doctor Manhattan exploding people instantly, and Blake casually lighting a cigar with a freaking flamethrower and then burning a helpless soldier. The irony of "I'm Your Boogie Man" as Blake chases away the protesters and starts shooting them.

There are a few moments in the film that made me laugh out loud in theaters. That cheesy heroic shot of Nite Owl in front of the owlship and the wind blowing dramatically...and then the paper hits him. Another moment is the shot of Dan dramatically turning towards the camera as he and Laurie fly away from the fire. This is followed by a very graphic and ridiculous sex scene with a nostalgic, romantic song in the background.

Well you did say badly executed..


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:33 pm 
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ROR-SHACK wrote:
then burning a helpless soldier


The soldier had a gun, and was at war, I wouldn't call him helples, as we know from our world's history the NVA was far from helpless.

I think history will be good to Watchmen and it'll start to become more of a cult classic that people review and start to see with eyes that aren't tainted by The Dark Knight, which will translate to it getting some mainstream cred.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:00 pm 
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SkaOreo wrote:
Well you did say badly executed..


No, I did not. DCR said that, and Godziller thought I did. Go back a page and see.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
ROR-SHACK wrote:
then burning a helpless soldier


The soldier had a gun, and was at war, I wouldn't call him helples, as we know from our world's history the NVA was far from helpless.



In the Director's Cut, you can clearly see he is missing his legs (or one?) and doesn't have a gun.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:09 pm 
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TheMovieDude wrote:
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
ROR-SHACK wrote:
then burning a helpless soldier


The soldier had a gun, and was at war, I wouldn't call him helples, as we know from our world's history the NVA was far from helpless.



In the Director's Cut, you can clearly see he is missing his legs (or one?) and doesn't have a gun.

Yeah, the guy has his leg blown off and does not have any weapons. He was pretty much begging for his life.

ROR-SHACK wrote:
SkaOreo wrote:
Well you did say badly executed..


No, I did not. DCR said that, and Godziller thought I did. Go back a page and see.

Oh yeah. Sorry about that. DCR said it. Kay DCR. What did you think was wrong with Rorschach's arrest scene?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:00 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
ROR-SHACK wrote:
then burning a helpless soldier


The soldier had a gun, and was at war, I wouldn't call him helples, as we know from our world's history the NVA was far from helpless.

I think history will be good to Watchmen and it'll start to become more of a cult classic that people review and start to see with eyes that aren't tainted by The Dark Knight, which will translate to it getting some mainstream cred.


I would prefer that their eyes aren't tainted by the reverence to the novel instead. That seems to be the biggest issue with most negative reviews. If you can ignore the fact that it's based on the graphic novel for 3 hours, it really is a great film in its own right.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:15 pm 
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madvillain wrote:
I would prefer that their eyes aren't tainted by the reverence to the novel instead. That seems to be the biggest issue with most negative reviews. If you can ignore the fact that it's based on the graphic novel for 3 hours, it really is a great film in its own right.


I absolutely agree. I do feel like that could prevent it from becoming a cult classic. "Blade Runner" is very different from the book it is based on, so that wasn't an issue.

When I view Watchmen as an adaptation, it's very underwhelming. I admire it for honoring the important themes of the book, but it comes no where close to capturing what makes the book such a classic. Nor could any film.
When I just watch the movie, I find it to be a fascinating multi-layered science-fiction dark political satire that also has some very insightful things to say about a popular film genre. I acknowledge some of its narrative flaws, but overall, it's a great film. It takes risks. It dares to be different, and do things that probably won't appeal to the masses. A breath of fresh air for someone tired of the same old studio garbage.

The book and the movie are very separate in my mind at this point. Even the characters. There's the Nite Owl in the book, and then there's Patrick Wilson's Nite Owl. Very separate in my mind.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:49 am 
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ROR-SHACK wrote:
DCR wrote:
Eg. I see no satire in Rorschach's entry to the Military Research Center.


They way it often works is that the film will set you up with something seemingly serious, and then throw something amusing into it, making you realize the film is not being completely serious. As he enters the military base, Rorschach says amusing things in a monotone I-am-a-badass voice. Jakie must have laughed a few times while recording:
"Dollar Bill got his cape stuck in a revolving door where he got gunned down."
"Even Adrian Veidt, possible homosexual, must investigate further."

That's yet another example of satire through contrast.

Yea, that's from the book, which is, among other things, a big satire.
But I see I didn't make myself clear enough. I was still talking about the action, the super-human skills Snyder gives to the costumed vigilantes.
Eg. Rorschach: he can walk up walls when he enters the military base, also when he enters Jacobi's house.

I have thought about what you have written about the action at Veidt's being satire. I can believe that Snyder really meant it that way.
It still doesn't work for me, but I can accept it as an artistic decision the director made, even though I dislike it. My loss, perhaps.
But where is the satire in Rorschach's super human skills when he visits the Doc and Juspeczyk?


Godziller66 wrote:
[the action scene when Rorschach gets framed at Jacobi's badly executed]
I thought it was fine but what did you find wrong with it?

To really explain why it doesn't work for me I must watch it again. If I remember right though I was thinking 'why the heck don't they just shoot him?!?'
In the books it's plain to see why Rorschach doesn't get shot. In the movie it felt (to me) as if the police was a squad of Stormtroopers.
There were other things, about the pacing in general, but I need to see it again.



madvillain wrote:
I would prefer that their eyes aren't tainted by the reverence to the novel instead. That seems to be the biggest issue with most negative reviews. If you can ignore the fact that it's based on the graphic novel for 3 hours, it really is a great film in its own right.

Hm....

There is a lot of truth in this.
Eg. I am one of the defenders of Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451, which many of those who love the book find atrocious. I keep telling them that the movie is an adaption, yes, but a different art form which does not try to be the book but something on its own.
And it works by itself, and terribly fails when a viewer expects to see the book.

BUT.

The problem I got with WATCHMEN: Snyder himself said things like "it's made by fans for fans". He said it was as close to the source as humanly possible. He said he hopes that Alan Moore will enjoy it, after all.

Well, I watched the movie with that in mind. And I was disappointed.
I do like the movie V for Vendetta quite a lot, even though they made a lot of changes. The changes worked (for me), and I didn't expect it to be the novel in the first place.
Now I am willing to try and see WATCHMEN the Movie in the same way, as a creation of its own, because I actually want to like it, and there are parts in it which I do like.

But it is still true that Snyder claimed to be very true to the source, that's why some peoples' eyes are 'tainted by the reverence to the novel' when they watch it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Here's my take on the so-called "super human" skills so many of you dislike in the film. Watch any action film and the characters in them have "super human" abilities. From Die Hard, to Pulp Fiction, characters can perform amazing feats impossible in the real world superhero or not.

For some reason, because Watchmen is about "real" superheroes, many of you are very sensitive to any action that appears impossible for a regular person to do.

For me Watchmen is a story about regular people who become superheroes in the real world with all of its prejudices and politics. And when I say "regular people," I mean people who are flawed, selfish, greedy, psychotic, insecure, spiteful, bitter and ignorant. Not the superheros in comics who always, think and do the "moral" thing.

So they punch harder, jump higher, run faster, resist pain, way more that you or I can. That has always been part of the superhero/action movie mythos and I don't particularly feel its an aspect that needs to be portrayed uber-realistically to get, what I feel is, the core of the Watchmen story across.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:54 pm 
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The over-the-top violence was very appropriate. I'm a visual learner. So I made these...

Watchmen takes comic book characters pretty much as they are and sticks them in the real world.

Cheesy Superhero + Real World = Watchmen

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Or, shockingly, another way to show it:

Image

The happy smiley face is still in tact. It just has blood on it. In Watchmen, the cheesy superheroes are still, in many ways, still in tact, but they've been shoved into the real world. We get to see the consequences their behavior would have on the world, and on themselves as people. It is a sickening contrast. People in tacky costumes engaging in such violence. The movie captured this contrast brilliantly. It shows the absurdity of how violence is trivialized in superhero stories.

The fans who didn't like the action scenes in the movie want it to be this way...

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And that just wouldn't be Watchmen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Bravo, ROR-SHACK. Very nicely put.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
From Die Hard, to Pulp Fiction, characters can perform amazing feats impossible in the real world superhero or not


There's a significant difference between what those movies do and what Watchmen tries to do. Die Hard and Pulp Fiction aren't trying to make some social commentary on violence and society and blah blah blah, like Watchmen is.

ROR-SHACK wrote:
And that just wouldn't be Watchmen


And this movie is? Well, not to me. And what was your point with the smiley face again? I totally missed it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:35 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
There's a significant difference between what those movies do and what Watchmen tries to do. Die Hard and Pulp Fiction aren't trying to make some social commentary on violence and society and blah blah blah, like Watchmen is.


The over-the-top action scenes are absolutely essential to the Watchmen movie's commentary on violence, and they way we trivialize it.

Spider-Man routinely beats people up, and we just go "cool." The Watchmen movie is a commentary on how such violence is trivialized in superhero movies (and action movies in general). Spider-Man punches guys, and the fall out of frame. In Watchmen, they punch guys, but we get to actually see what's going on. People are getting hurt. The contrast of cheesy costumes and brutal violence is sickening. Suddenly, superhero violence doesn't seem so cool. It draws attention to the fact that this is what superhero movies do: Dress horrible violence in pretty colors.

Veidt jumps 10 feet into the air, and while this is going on, 15 million people are being killed. Violence being treated like a joke. Sickening. But that's what superhero movies do if you really think about it. This movie draws attention to that. The commentary comes out of the satire.

To explain the smiley a little more...

The superhero characters in Watchmen are just as ridiculous as superheroes in comic books. And the book doesn't try to hide that fact. On the contrary, the book is trying to show how ridiculous they are. These kinds of cheesy idealized characters are represented by the smiley face. The blood represents the real world. Watchmen takes the kind of ridiculous superhero characters we're familiar with and puts them in the real world. When you do that, they don't seem so cool anymore. In fact, it's a disturbing idea. People dressing up in costumes and engaging in such violence. This is why the blood-splattered smiley is the perfect cover for the book. It's a very simple image that captures what the book does to superheroes.

In short, the characters in Watchmen are very much the same as characters we see in comic books. The major difference in Watchmen is the moral and political implications. Things comic books ignore, Watchmen confronts head on. "This is what these absurd characters would do to the world."

Same thing in the movie. The characters, including their over-the-top fighting skills, are just as absurd as Spider-Man or Batman. But now, we're allowed to see the consequences they would have on the world.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Bravo, ROR-SHACK. Very nicely put.

My sentiments exactly. I actually don't mind the Veidt fight scene so much now that I have several essays explaining why it's appropriate.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:19 pm 
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It's also a nice contrast to the opening fight between Veidt and Blake. These are two people fighting, no costumes, it's bloody and gruesome. Once in costume though, Veidt fights like a typical superhero, over-the-top, fantastical and choreographed. You'll notice this throughout the film. As "normal people" Dan and Laurie viciously take care of their attempted muggers. In costume at the prison, they fight with grace, no broken bones, no blood. It's like, "this is what you're use to, but this is how it really is." The only time when something gruesome happens when in costume is when reality sets in; Dan finding out Hollis was murdered, Rorschach finding Roche's remains, Vietnam with Jon and Blake, Sally's attempted rape. It really shows just how ridiculous superhero's really are and that there's really nothing super about them or what they do.

I don't think Snyder is given enough credit for what he did.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:27 pm 
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madvillain wrote:
I don't think Snyder is given enough credit for what he did.

Definitely not.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Madvillain, I essentially agree with what you're saying. That's a good point about how they suddenly fight more gracefully when in costume.

But I still think the opening fight scene (and the knot-top fight) is pretty over-the-top. The stock sound effects, Blake smashing a brick fireplace, Veidt throwing Blake all the way across the room, Veidt catching a knife, and then of course picking him up and throwing him out a window. And of course, most of all, the slow-mo used throughout. Excellent tone setter for the movie. I think it tips the viewer off from the very beginning that this movie is satire.

madvillain wrote:
I don't think Snyder is given enough credit for what he did.


I think because of Snyder's reputation as an action director, people are quick to dismiss Watchmen. If you left everything else the same, but changed the credits to say "A Christopher Nolan film," I think the movie would get a lot more respect.

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Last edited by ROR-SHACK on Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:55 pm 
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ROR-SHACK wrote:
The over-the-top action scenes are absolutely essential to the Watchmen movie's commentary on violence, and they way we trivialize it.

ROR-SHACK wrote:
But I still think the opening fight scene (and the knot-top fight) is pretty over-the-top.

You're killing me here...

ROR-SHACK wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
I don't think Snyder is given enough credit for what he did.


I think because of Snyder's reputation as an action director, people are quick to dismiss Watchmen. If you left everything else the same, but changed the credits to say "A Christopher Nolan film," I think the movie would get a lot more respect.

Oh, and I didn't say that. madvillain did.

..I guess we're even.

Godziller66 wrote:
ROR-SHACK wrote:
SkaOreo wrote:
Well you did say badly executed..


No, I did not. DCR said that, and Godziller thought I did. Go back a page and see.

Oh yeah. Sorry about that. DCR said it. Kay DCR. What did you think was wrong with Rorschach's arrest scene?

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Last edited by Godziller66 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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