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 Post subject: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:34 am 
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Crimebuster
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Hi All,

New here at the boards. Looking foward to chatting about Watchmen.

I guess the first thing I wanted to talk about was the movie. I've heard many casual fans and hardcore Watchmen fans be displeased with the final product. And honestly, if we're talking about the theatrical vesion I agree. But the Ultimate Cut? That's the version I own and I gotta say, it's damn good! Take into account all the deleted scenes being put back, the Black Freighter woven in, and the extra of Under The Hood retrospective really makes it an awesome adaptation.

I have the Ultimate Cut of the movie and the Absolute Watchmen novel. To be honest with you, there are things I liked in the move much more than in the novel. Dr. Manhattan and the Comedian are a lot better portraid in the movie. I also felt that Adrian's plot was better in the movie.

I think the biggest drawback to the movie, is that it's just not relevant today. 2009 is just too far removed from the cliche threats of "evil Russians and their nukes. In the 80's, that was a legit threat and connected with the readers. Today it's just a bad Rocky/Rambo theme from the past.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:33 am 
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I think the problem more with the release date was Sam Hamm and FOX.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:48 am 
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Whoa, a new person!

*scrambles to get self together*

Hello there! My associates and I would be kind enough to direct you to another thread that discussed this very topic. That is, we would if any of us knew where the hell it was.

Anyway, I prefer the Ultimate Cut above all other cuts myself, but you should check out the WCM cut made by our own adorable little AYB when he re-releases it in a little bit. It's pretty ace stuff if I do say so myself. Also, I disagree that Watchmen isn't relevant today. For one thing, it has many many themes that run throughout it, not just the war and paranoia aspect. And even then, people will always be able to relate to that on some level, though one would be hard-pressed to admit that it didn't carry more weight back in the heart of the Cold War.

Welcome to the madhouse, by the way!!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:47 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Welcome to the madhouse, by the way!!!


isn't that supposed to be curi's line? eh, i guess somebody's gotta say it each time a newbie comes around.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:23 pm 
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WJK wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
Welcome to the madhouse, by the way!!!


isn't that supposed to be curi's line? eh, i guess somebody's gotta say it each time a newbie comes around.

Don't you know I'm just a genetically enhanced clone designed to carry all your best attributes?

It's pretty sweet post-wise, but I tend to have consistent problems of existentialism.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Quote:
Also, I disagree that Watchmen isn't relevant today. For one thing, it has many many themes that run throughout it, not just the war and paranoia aspect. And even then, people will always be able to relate to that on some level, though one would be hard-pressed to admit that it didn't carry more weight back in the heart of the Cold War.


An average movie goes isn't smart enough to catch that. They see Russians, they see nukes, they see costumes. That's about as deep as it goes. lol And because the more obvious themes carry far less relevance in today's world, most people simply didn't feel the urgency of the story.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:55 pm 
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watchman wrote:
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Also, I disagree that Watchmen isn't relevant today. For one thing, it has many many themes that run throughout it, not just the war and paranoia aspect. And even then, people will always be able to relate to that on some level, though one would be hard-pressed to admit that it didn't carry more weight back in the heart of the Cold War.


An average movie goes isn't smart enough to catch that. They see Russians, they see nukes, they see costumes. That's about as deep as it goes.

Okay, stop!

...hammer time.

Really, though, anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to discern many more themes from Watchmen rather than just the whole Cold War thing. And I don't want to be too blunt, but unless someone completely isn't paying attention or has a mental deficiency of some kind, it should be easy to pick up on more than just the war thing.

I mean, vigilantism. That's one right there. And while that in and of itself isn't a theme per se, it encompasses a ton in the movie that are really easy to find, like the morality and mind-set of people who run around and beat up criminals. Really, just take a look around the Watchmen section of the forum. There are so many themes, you won't even know what to do with them. If themes were currency, then you would be a rich man. If I had a nickel for every theme I've read about on this forum, I'd have enough money to-well, you get the idea.

Addendum: Also, what I get from your post is that you think movie-goers aren't smart enough to pick up on anything that's not either explicitly told to them or phrased in the form of a giant robot fight. Movies are so screwed, man.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Well, the Watchmen movie brough out all those themes, and translated them rather well onto the big screen. Yet the movie tanked in the second week. So I guess most don't have the "two brain cells" you speak of. And the reviews weren't that great either, specifically in ragards to plot.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:21 am 
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watchman wrote:
Well, the Watchmen movie brough out all those themes, and translated them rather well onto the big screen. Yet the movie tanked in the second week. So I guess most don't have the "two brain cells" you speak of.

You know what the critics and audiences loved? Avatar.

Your honor, I rest my case.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:36 am 
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Quote:
You know what the critics and audiences loved? Avatar.

Your honor, I rest my case.


I failed to see your case. All you did was prove mine. Avatar had a paper-thin, Pocahantas plot. It did great. Watchmen, with all the depth and vast array of plot elements flopped after the first week. Thank you for proving my point about the American movie audience.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:51 am 
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watchman wrote:
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You know what the critics and audiences loved? Avatar.

Your honor, I rest my case.


I failed to see your case. All you did was prove mine. Avatar had a paper-thin, Pocahantas plot. It did great. Watchmen, with all the depth and vast array of plot elements flopped after the first week. Thank you for proving my point about the American movie audience.

Okay, yeah, they suck. That was sort of the point I was trying to make, but I didn't do it very well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:57 am 
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watchman wrote:
Quote:
You know what the critics and audiences loved? Avatar.

Your honor, I rest my case.


I failed to see your case. All you did was prove mine. Avatar had a paper-thin, Pocahantas plot. It did great. Watchmen, with all the depth and vast array of plot elements flopped after the first week. Thank you for proving my point about the American movie audience.


Making fun of America? ON MY FORUM?

*rage*


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:14 am 
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I think Hayter and Tse did an excellent job stressing the danger - nay, inevitability - of nuclear war, whereas in '85-'86 the threat could be taken for granted. I don't think historical circumstance is a fault of the film.
But I agree that it's an aspect a lot of our generation won't fully appreciate for its terror, so we might not be able to place ourselves in Veidt's shoes and fairly ask would we do the same thing. That's why in the past I've suggested watching Dr Strangelove before Watchmen, as a double bill. Perhaps even Threads, which really puts you in the horror.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Interestingly, the lingering close-up depiction of visceral death and destruction as presented in a work such as the aforementioned Threads has much more in common in terms of tone and overall impact with the imagery shown in the opening pages of issue twelve of WATCHMEN than it does with the rather antiseptic, anaemic version given to us in the corresponding screen adaptation.

I wonder: by way of alternative, if watching the horrors of Threads before then considering the closing chapter of WATCHMEN in print, rather than granting an insight into the sense of dread cast by the threat of nuclear holocaust back in the day, would instead give the viewer/reader a heightened sense of moral outrage at the human cost of the abomination unleashed by Veidt and its immediate result. As you suggest, having really put oneself in the horror in such a fashion, going on to then imagine being "... in Veidt's shoes" and asking the question of whether you would do the same thing as him - if whether the end indeed justifies the means (OR ALL DIE) - takes on a whole different meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Personally I don't think Veidt's horror is really the same thing. The counterpoint to those scenes of death are the last pages of Ch11, in which the white glow always struck me as somewhat baptismal or even rapturous, a form of release following on from the street tensions and, ultimately, conflict.
As far as the film double bill would go (at least), I think Threads goes to highlight more the alternative to Veidt's actions... the consequences of doing nothing. Veidt sees this bleak future reality, and the BBC film lets us in on it too. Sure, as you rightly point out there's definite similarities between Threads and the aftermath of Veidt's action, but we're not getting any umbilical cord craziness a generation down. We're getting One World One Accord, tenuous as it is.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:21 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
As far as the film double bill would go (at least), I think Threads goes to highlight more the alternative to Veidt's actions... the consequences of doing nothing.

Imagine yourself as an onlooker transported firstly to the fictional Sheffield of 1984, i.e. representative of the consequences of doing nothing, then followed by a visit to the fictional Manhattan of 1985, i.e. representative of the consequenes of (Veidt) doing something. I think you'd struggle to outwardly see much difference between the two scenarios, hence can one really find sympathy with Veidt's actions?

AYBGerrardo wrote:
Sure, as you rightly point out there's definite similarities between Threads and the aftermath of Veidt's action, but we're not getting any umbilical cord craziness a generation down. We're getting One World One Accord, tenuous as it is.

You're jumping too far ahead... hence my reference to just the "imediate result" of Veidt's actions, i.e. the battered streets filled with millions of bloody, broken bodies.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
AYBGerrardo wrote:
As far as the film double bill would go (at least), I think Threads goes to highlight more the alternative to Veidt's actions... the consequences of doing nothing.

Imagine yourself as an onlooker transported firstly to the fictional Sheffield of 1984, i.e. representative of the consequences of doing nothing, then followed by a visit to the fictional Manhattan of 1985, i.e. representative of the consequenes of (Veidt) doing something. I think you'd struggle to outwardly see much difference between the two scenarios, hence can one really find sympathy with Veidt's actions?

I think that's just testament to the nuance of the ending. That's one way of looking at it, and certainly an intended way of looking at it, but one of many. I've already said how I believe the combination would affect my experience, and I thank you for reminding me that there's always other interpretations, some highly distinct. Really my suggestion isn't to force an alternative viewpoint upon the audience - rather its universal effect (if it has one) would be to bring said nuances to the forefront, as well as the initial intention of highlighting the danger of nuclear war.
I will say, though, that TheMovieDude's scene order edit for the WCM Cut does a good deal in this regard already.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:56 am 
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I re-edited the opening to be nearly identical to the GN.
Red tint and everything

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:26 am 
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NiteOwl wrote:
I re-edited the opening to be nearly identical to the GN.
Red tint and everything

Links or it didn't happen.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Cut
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
NiteOwl wrote:
I re-edited the opening to be nearly identical to the GN.
Red tint and everything

Links or it didn't happen.

lol its not online.


yet.

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