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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:57 am 
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i wonder how anybody can be mystified by rorschach/walter owning plates.
he is, and has always been (since he left the charlton home - at sixteen), a single man living on his own. his lifestyle has always been modest, and his descent into the near-vagrant state at the start of the GN has been gradual. i can perfectly see plates and maybe a simple stove as the usual outfit for a room that´s meant to be let to a worker who has to care for himself. there´s definitely nothing fancy going on in the cooking department (the empty can is testimony for that), and plates are used as long as there are clean ones left. i imagine during the years the cooking and cleaning has became less and less regular (hence the complaints of the landlady re hygiene), accompanied by walter picking up more and more irregular eating habits.
i think it is likely that he has occupied the same room for a long time, and has taken care of it less and less, leading to the run-down state of things (broken crookery etc) of the GN present.


There are no signs of a stove in Rorschach's apartment (and we already know that he does not require his beans to be heated), nor of a cupboard, just the plates, and a fairly large number of them. The ensemble of these facts is the intriguing thing. The plates are, literally and metaphorically, out of place. There is even no sink to pile them in.

So far, I'm quite sure that RR used to make a living in the garment industry, then became a masked hero, getting some significant support from Dan Dreiberg. After the Roche case and the Keene Act, Rorschach acts on his own and makes his living basically from dumpster-diving. There seems to be absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any other means of income.

What I am wondering is whether the out-of-place plates could be a clue for some other, supplementary, means of income.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:10 am 
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Wyart wrote:
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i wonder how anybody can be mystified by rorschach/walter owning plates.
he is, and has always been (since he left the charlton home - at sixteen), a single man living on his own. his lifestyle has always been modest, and his descent into the near-vagrant state at the start of the GN has been gradual. i can perfectly see plates and maybe a simple stove as the usual outfit for a room that´s meant to be let to a worker who has to care for himself. there´s definitely nothing fancy going on in the cooking department (the empty can is testimony for that), and plates are used as long as there are clean ones left. i imagine during the years the cooking and cleaning has became less and less regular (hence the complaints of the landlady re hygiene), accompanied by walter picking up more and more irregular eating habits.
i think it is likely that he has occupied the same room for a long time, and has taken care of it less and less, leading to the run-down state of things (broken crookery etc) of the GN present.


There are no signs of a stove in Rorschach's apartment (and we already know that he does not require his beans to be heated), nor of a cupboard, just the plates, and a fairly large number of them. The ensemble of these facts is the intriguing thing. The plates are, literally and metaphorically, out of place. There is even no sink to pile them in.

So far, I'm quite sure that RR used to make a living in the garment industry, then became a masked hero, getting some significant support from Dan Dreiberg. After the Roche case and the Keene Act, Rorschach acts on his own and makes his living basically from dumpster-diving. There seems to be absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any other means of income.

What I am wondering is whether the out-of-place plates could be a clue for some other, supplementary, means of income.



i don´t think they are.
a) because you really don´t need a special budget to buy plates 8and from the look of things, those plates are old and well-used).
b) i don´t think we get to see enough of walter´s room to deduce he doesn´t have a sink/stove/cupboard/shelf.

i really don´t see any relevance of the dirty dishes here other than to illustrate the unsavoury and poor lifestyle rorschach/walter has sunk into during the course of his relentless pursuit of justice.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Below are all the relevant images I could find pertaining to the inside of Rorschach's apartment. I believe that they show that it is just a fairly small room, no bathroom or kitchen, and no furniture save for a bed, a chair, and a table. This is consistent with his meager earnings from dumpster-diving, but it does make the presence of dishes and cuttlery quite strange.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:11 pm 
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Wyart wrote:
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In addition to the normal ways in which vagrants commonly get money, such as dumpster diving and donations in change, we have one additional clue.

Dan tells Rorschach "You live off people while insulting them, and nobody complains because they think you're a god-damn lunatic."

This begs the question.. who are "They"

When Rorschach stops over at Dan's for food, there's an implication that they haven't seen each other in a while.
This of course means that Rorschach is not there every other day, nor does he seem to visit Moloch so often.

When Dan makes the above quoted remark, he seems to exclude himself. (As he does not think Rorschach is a Lunatic. and IS complaining).....

So who are these people that Dan accuses Rorschach of ungratefully living off of?




I read this exchange more as Dreiberg speaking in the third person so the criticism doesn't seem as personal from him to Rorschach -- it seems more neutral to couch it in terms of "people" and "they" rather than saying "Me" and "I".

Oops, just saw that Morning Glory made an almost identical interpretation before I posted mine.

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Last edited by piper909 on Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Nellodee wrote:
i wonder how anybody can be mystified by rorschach/walter owning plates.
he is, and has always been (since he left the charlton home - at sixteen), a single man living on his own. his lifestyle has always been modest, and his descent into the near-vagrant state at the start of the GN has been gradual. i can perfectly see plates and maybe a simple stove as the usual outfit for a room that´s meant to be let to a worker who has to care for himself. there´s definitely nothing fancy going on in the cooking department (the empty can is testimony for that), and plates are used as long as there are clean ones left. i imagine during the years the cooking and cleaning has became less and less regular (hence the complaints of the landlady re hygiene), accompanied by walter picking up more and more irregular eating habits.
i think it is likely that he has occupied the same room for a long time, and has taken care of it less and less, leading to the run-down state of things (broken crookery etc) of the GN present.


Heh. My sisterin-law and family live in almost the exact same state of deplorable squalor, without Rorschach's excuse. The kitchen (and other rooms) are a mess of stacked up dirty dishes because no one bothers to clean them. Lazy sods. When they need a dish, they'll pick up one that isn't too nasty, clean only that one, and then put it back on some stack when they've finished. Believe me, there's nothing intrinsically unbelievable about Rorschach's apartment.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:24 pm 
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With a regular income and a domestic situation that had not yet descended into the abject squalor of living like an animal, is it not the case that Kovacs would simply have had both the need and money for cutlery to eat with and plates to eat off over the course of eleven working years, scant possessions he would hold on to over time to become cracked and filth encrusted with age and neglect?


The strange thing with that argument is that the ONLY things to survive from the former days of relatively high income would be the plates/cuttlery, nothing else. Why would that be the case? I mean, he would have needed other basic implements, certainly more clothes and furniture. Why did only the plates/cuttlery remain? Doesn't make any sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
DogWithHeadSplitOpen wrote:
I've wondered this myself. I tend to agree with that above, that he steals the money from criminals, like drug dealers.

You know what's hypocritical about him? He doesn't "punish" prostitutes and pimps. He'll "punish" those, like Moloch, who don't have a gun license or a prescription paperwork, but he doesn't "punish" those guilty of prostitution? Weird!


Maybe he does love his mother after all...



If he does it's in an abstract kind of way. He certainly has no love of her as a person but as mother, yeah. It's hard to shake off that one no matter how heinous your mother (or other horrendous family member).
He loves her but he also wants to drive over her with a steamroller for hurting and betraying him.

Maybe he realises that most women turn to prostitution out of desperation. His mum wasn't quiet about the fact.
Maybe he figures many of them have kids at home. (Though part of me wonders why he doesn't feel the need to free those kids from a mother like he had.)

He is able to discern motivation and doesn't see all crimes as requiring the same punishment. He's not 100% absolute in his attitude to criminals. He shown discernment.

Odd the amnesty on pimps, though, seeing as a pimp killed his mum. Strange the absence of pimp-shaped retribution.

Maybe he just finds that life so distasteful he doesn't want to go anywhere near it even to stamp it out. He'd rather pretend it wasn't happening than to face up to those memories again.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:30 am 
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Minutemarch wrote:
Lady_Rorschach wrote:
DogWithHeadSplitOpen wrote:
I've wondered this myself. I tend to agree with that above, that he steals the money from criminals, like drug dealers.

You know what's hypocritical about him? He doesn't "punish" prostitutes and pimps. He'll "punish" those, like Moloch, who don't have a gun license or a prescription paperwork, but he doesn't "punish" those guilty of prostitution? Weird!


Maybe he does love his mother after all...



If he does it's in an abstract kind of way. He certainly has no love of her as a person but as mother, yeah. It's hard to shake off that one no matter how heinous your mother (or other horrendous family member).
He loves her but he also wants to drive over her with a steamroller for hurting and betraying him.

Maybe he realises that most women turn to prostitution out of desperation. His mum wasn't quiet about the fact.
Maybe he figures many of them have kids at home. (Though part of me wonders why he doesn't feel the need to free those kids from a mother like he had.)

He is able to discern motivation and doesn't see all crimes as requiring the same punishment. He's not 100% absolute in his attitude to criminals. He shown discernment.

Odd the amnesty on pimps, though, seeing as a pimp killed his mum. Strange the absence of pimp-shaped retribution.

Maybe he just finds that life so distasteful he doesn't want to go anywhere near it even to stamp it out. He'd rather pretend it wasn't happening than to face up to those memories again.


Minutemarch, I have been finding your posts very insightful and I've been pretty much agreeing with you, to include what I quoted here.

There was another comment, upthread, about he likes his beans cold, to paraphrase, where do we get this assertion? I know that Dan comes in on him finishing a can and offers to warm them up, however, he's almost done with them. Kind of too late. I'd have turned down a warming at that point too. Yes, I know there's a plentitude of snarfing. Sitting in the fridge devouring. Starving man, no point in warming, get food in as quickly as possible. That's how I see it.

And in as far as the comment on high paying job. Huh? He was a schlub at the factory, I can't imagine, in the 70s, that being all that high paying. He was probably just getting by with the rent and a few expenses. I make pretty good money for an admin assistant and I'm having trouble making ends meet.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:04 am 
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Minutemarch, I have been finding your posts very insightful and I've been pretty much agreeing with you, to include what I quoted here.


:oops: Thank you *shuffles feet. Looks at floor*
Though, here, I'm finding such wonderful insights at every turn, from everyone.
It's all Moore's fault for making such interesting characters.

Plus my insight into Rorschach's feelings about his mum come from personal experience, so that's kinda cheating.

As for the beans, I think he could just about justify stealing the beans. They were a necessity, he had to eat, and beans were likely the cheapest sort of food he could find but the electricity to heat them up? That be a luxury and I don't think Rorschach could bring himself to steal a luxury, not at that point.

Later he works his way up to cereal and sugar cubes but it never get's over the top. It clearly only takes what he needs (well, plus the sugar which he must feel he needs too), and, at this tentative first re-introduction, it's almost like he was trying to make the least impact. He needed Dan to listen to him and he didn't want him to be distracted by the fact Rorschach had broken in and had then eaten $100 worth of meat and the cake he'd make Mason for his birthday.

I suspect, at this first visit, he may have done what he would have done in the house of a neutral stranger and when their relationship consolidates he feels more comfortable helping himself to stuff. He knows Dan can afford a few extra boxes of rolled oats.

Plus, try picturing Rorschach cooking, stirring those beans in a pot. Does it make you giggle too?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Rorschach is really facinating. He shuns comfort and luxury, but like eating sugar cubes and gets nostalgic for soft drinks. I guess they may have been at the root of his very few happy childhood memories...

Maybe they bring back those feelings of comfort and warm memories for a few moments. It'd also explain why he scoffs a sugar cube on the hover bike ride to karnak. He must have been really on edge there....


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:26 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
Gleaned from the New York State Psychiatric Hospital West Branch report, Chap. VI:

Having left the Charlton home aged sixteen, Kovacs took up '...residence in the first of a series of small apartments'.

It's entirely conceivable that his former carers provided the young Walter with a leaving gift of his crockery and cutlery, a welfare package of a few of the basic essentials to set him up in his new home out in the big wide world. Alternatively, he acquired these possessions along the way from the various different dwellings he occupied over the years before finding himself living under Mrs Shairp's delapidated roof.

The report also goes on to inform us that Kovacs took up '...full employment... within the garment industry, an occupation he apparently remained in up until the mid-seventies, maintaining a dual life between his daytime employment and his nocturnal activities in the guise of 'Rorschach'.'

He was therefore holding down a regular paying job for a full eleven years whilst carving out his extracurricular crimefighting career and must surely have managed to put away something in the way of savings during that time; he certainly wouldn't have frittered away his money on trivial personal extravagances or a social life.

One can summise that Rorschach simply abandoned his job mid-seventies after the Roche incident and walked away from his regular life as Walter Kovacs for good. With Walter being dead and gone to all intents and purposes after that point, he then entered his truly vagrant unemployed doomsayer phase which, whilst providing him with the perfect cover to gather information in support of his now obsessive nocturnal quest for justice as Rorschach, dropped his living arrangements in the toilet as a consequence. Prior to this, Walter had not been living such a meagre transient existence incorporating the same appalling personal hygiene and low domestic standards that he would later adopt (his colleagues and boss at the garment factory would surely have said something if that had been the case beforehand, putting his job at risk).

With a regular income and a domestic situation that had not yet descended into the abject squalor of living like an animal, is it not the case that Kovacs would simply have had both the need and money for cutlery to eat with and plates to eat off over the course of eleven working years, scant possessions he would hold on to over time to become cracked and filth encrusted with age and neglect?

This just strikes me as being an altogether more plausible, far simpler explanation as opposed to some contrived hidden meaning or clue hinting at a mysterious supplementary means of income for the character. Hell, he's complicated enough as it is!

We can all of us postulate all we want, but when it really comes down to it:
Wanna quickly and easily show the reader that Rorschach lives like crap? Draw a stack o' shitty old dirty cups 'n' plates piled up in his apartment - done!


Excellent summation -- I think this completely captures my own view. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:11 am 
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Longmoan wrote:
Rorschach is really facinating. He shuns comfort and luxury, but like eating sugar cubes and gets nostalgic for soft drinks. I guess they may have been at the root of his very few happy childhood memories...

Maybe they bring back those feelings of comfort and warm memories for a few moments. It'd also explain why he scoffs a sugar cube on the hover bike ride to karnak. He must have been really on edge there....


Hmmm, that's a good thought, actually. I can see it now, young Walter, being ignored by mom...again. Hungry, goes to kitchen. Nothing much available for kid to find, save for sugar cubes. They make him happy. I can totally see them as being his comfort food!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:56 am 
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Minutemarch wrote:

Maybe he figures many of them have kids at home. (Though part of me wonders why he doesn't feel the need to free those kids from a mother like he had.)



The one thing that changes Rorschach's tune is the fact that Mrs. Shairp actually cares about her children. She if hadn't she wouldn't have held them so protectively like she had when Rorschach went back to the apartment to get his replacement mask, she would have thrown them at him. She also protects them by never telling them she was a "Whore" ("Please..they don't...they don't know...") while Mrs. Kovacs flaunted her occupation for everyone to see, not caring if even her only child knew about it.

By realizing that Mrs. Shairp was both a whore and a loving mother, Rorschach didn't hurt her.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:53 am 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
Minutemarch wrote:

Maybe he figures many of them have kids at home. (Though part of me wonders why he doesn't feel the need to free those kids from a mother like he had.)



The one thing that changes Rorschach's tune is the fact that Mrs. Shairp actually cares about her children. She if hadn't she wouldn't have held them so protectively like she had when Rorschach went back to the apartment to get his replacement mask, she would have thrown them at him. She also protects them by never telling them she was a "Whore" ("Please..they don't...they don't know...") while Mrs. Kovacs flaunted her occupation for everyone to see, not caring if even her only child knew about it.

By realizing that Mrs. Shairp was both a whore and a loving mother, Rorschach didn't hurt her.


excellent point. highlighting yet another moment when rorschach´s black and white world takes a hit.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:07 am 
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By realizing that Mrs. Shairp was both a whore and a loving mother, Rorschach didn't hurt her.


Yes. It makes sense he would appreciate this.

Nellodee wrote:
Lady_Rorschach wrote:
Minutemarch wrote:

Maybe he figures many of them have kids at home. (Though part of me wonders why he doesn't feel the need to free those kids from a mother like he had.)



The one thing that changes Rorschach's tune is the fact that Mrs. Shairp actually cares about her children. She if hadn't she wouldn't have held them so protectively like she had when Rorschach went back to the apartment to get his replacement mask, she would have thrown them at him. She also protects them by never telling them she was a "Whore" ("Please..they don't...they don't know...") while Mrs. Kovacs flaunted her occupation for everyone to see, not caring if even her only child knew about it.

By realizing that Mrs. Shairp was both a whore and a loving mother, Rorschach didn't hurt her.


excellent point. highlighting yet another moment when rorschach´s black and white world takes a hit.


It looks like Rorschach is inconsistent but I don't think he is.
I think that's because this was Walter, not Rorschach. Sometimes it's Walter who decides what to do, or not to do, next.
So it's not a contradiction for Rorschach. At those times it's not Rorschach.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:57 am 
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There was another comment, upthread, about he likes his beans cold, to paraphrase, where do we get this assertion? I know that Dan comes in on him finishing a can and offers to warm them up, however, he's almost done with them. Kind of too late. I'd have turned down a warming at that point too. Yes, I know there's a plentitude of snarfing. Sitting in the fridge devouring. Starving man, no point in warming, get food in as quickly as possible. That's how I see it.


We know that he doesn't usually heat his beans not only from the first dialogue with Dan but also from the fact that, along with the yet very mysterious dirty dishes, we can clearly see opened bean cans, one of them with a spoon sticking out of it. I'm not speculating that he has a preference for cold beans or that it reflects an sort of ethical code, but simply pointing out that it is the way RR usually eats beans. This makes perfect sense in light of the fact that he clearly has no stove to heat food with anyhow.

Quote:
We can all of us postulate all we want, but when it really comes down to it: Wanna quickly and easily show the reader that Rorschach lives like crap? Draw a stack o' shitty old dirty cups 'n' plates piled up in his apartment - done!


This would mean that the dishes are just a symbol that does not need to make logical sense in the plot but simply communicate a message? This reasoning kind of goes against the whole style of the GN, where symbols are found everywhere, but ALWAYS making logical sense within the context of the plot, even down to very minute details.

The "dirty dishes mystery" lives on!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:05 pm 
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question answered

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:10 pm 
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We know that he doesn't usually heat his beans not only from the first dialogue with Dan but also from the fact that, along with the yet very mysterious dirty dishes, we can clearly see opened bean cans, one of them with a spoon sticking out of it. I'm not speculating that he has a preference for cold beans or that it reflects an sort of ethical code, but simply pointing out that it is the way RR usually eats beans. This makes perfect sense in light of the fact that he clearly has no stove to heat food with anyhow.


It's is, then, a matter or necessity and not one of taste so, yeah, it's not about him liking them cold. That's usually the only way he can have them.

Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
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question answered


Damn. Might as well all go home! :arrow:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:17 pm 
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I dont understand why dishes are a point of contention here.

We dont see much of Rorschach's apartment anyway. Only 4 small panels from limited angles.

Do you guys realize that he HAS to have a bathroom somewhere, it's very likely that there's other rooms that we don't see. We've only seen the apartment from a limited number of angles so there's no way to know.

I mean there's no way he can live without running water...

After he returns from jail, his apartment was cleaned out by the police (even the mattress is gone)

Pre-police looting, he also has a framed picture, sign making supplies, a pillow, bedding, mattress, extra clothes...etc.


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