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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:22 pm 
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I dont understand why dishes are a point of contention here.

We dont see much of Rorschach's apartment anyway. Only 4 small panels from limited angles.

Do you guys realize that he HAS to have a bathroom somewhere, it's very likely that there's other rooms that we don't see. We've only seen the apartment from a limited number of angles so there's no way to know.

I mean there's no way he can live without running water...

After he returns from jail, his apartment was cleaned out by the police (even the mattress is gone)

Pre-police looting, he also has a framed picture, sign making supplies, a pillow, bedding, mattress, extra clothes...etc.


The angles are quite enough for us to see the four walls of his living quarters, including the entrance.

Image

We clearly see that RR lives in a one-room apartment, not unlike some older buildings from the 1940's that had one bathroom per floor. I'm quite sure that his personal hygene would have been much better had he private access to running water.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Wyart wrote:

There are no signs of a stove in Rorschach's apartment .....



Uhh..... It's right there.


Image

Arguably that might be a different apartment.... But he has a portable stove.

Also since it has no electrical cord coming off of it and has an open flame, Im assuming that its a wood burning charcoal stove.


Quote:
We clearly see that RR lives in a one-room apartment, not unlike some older buildings from the 1940's that had one bathroom per floor. I'm quite sure that his personal hygene would have been much better had he private access to running water.


You know it never crossed my mind that apartments can lack something like a toilet.... I mean even his jail cell had one.... but I guess you have a point.

I always thought of a bathroom as a basic amenity common to all dwellings.... it never crossed my mind a permanent residence of any kind can lack a bathroom.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:32 am 
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Arguably that might be a different apartment.... But he has a portable stove.


The portable stove was a good find, albeit, as you yourself pointed out, from the days when Kovacs had not taken up being a masked hero (nor had effectively become Rorschach). In his later dwelling, after the Roche girl murder, we see plenty of the "apartment", but no sign of stove.

Quote:
You know it never crossed my mind that apartments can lack something like a toilet.... I mean even his jail cell had one.... but I guess you have a point.

I always thought of a bathroom as a basic amenity common to all dwellings.... it never crossed my mind a permanent residence of any kind can lack a bathroom.


You can read mentions of such buildings with only one collective bathroom per floor in some Henry Miller books, and my parents mentioned some of them still existing in France in the mid 70's. It is not hard to imagine a small number of very old, beat-up, buildings of that type that have still managed to survive. Of course, such buildings would make for extremely cheap rent, thereby attracting all sorts of financially-challenged individuals. Mind you that the plot of the GN occurs in 1985, making it far more likely to find such buildings than it would be the case in 2009 (granted that, even in 1985, such buildings would be rare - but still in existence).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:46 am 
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Wyart wrote:
Quote:
Arguably that might be a different apartment.... But he has a portable stove.


The portable stove was a good find, albeit, as you yourself pointed out, from the days when Kovacs had not taken up being a masked hero (nor had effectively become Rorschach). In his later dwelling, after the Roche girl murder, we see plenty of the "apartment", but no sign of stove.


We don't really see that much of apartment. When I have time later this week. Im going to do a quick schematic of what angles we actually see.

The only reason we see the stove in that image is becasue he's using it at the very moment..... seeing that it's a portable stove.... and pretty small. I mean, pre police raid, we see his apartment when he wakes up, and again when the landlord shows it on TV (Rorschach captured during his patrol)

It makes no sense for him to leave an open flame when he's sleeping, or when he's out investigating....

I would expect that it's just in some corner we don't see.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:54 am 
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We don't really see that much of apartment. When I have time later this week. Im going to do a quick schematic of what angles we actually see.

The only reason we see the stove in that image is becasue he's using it at the very moment..... seeing that it's a portable stove.... and pretty small. I mean, pre police raid, we see his apartment when he wakes up, and again when the landlord shows it on TV (Rorschach captured during his patrol)

It makes no sense for him to leave an open flame when he's sleeping, or when he's out investigating....

I would expect that it's just in some corner we don't see.


Just for the record... We not only do not see any portable stoves (though I do concede that it could be kept under his bed, for instance - unlit of course) but also no pans. The whole point is not really about the stove, but the absence of any cooking activities on RR's behalf post-Roche.

I'd love to see a schematic of the apartment based on what is shown in the GN! Didn't do it myself because, in all honesty, I lack the skill. I wonder if one cannot find something in that regard in "Watching the Watchmen"?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 am 
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I'd love to see a schematic of the apartment based on what is shown in the GN! Didn't do it myself because, in all honesty, I lack the skill. I wonder if one cannot find something in that regard in "Watching the Watchmen"?


I would love to see something like that but I dont have the book.

I'm sure Dave MUST have draw a layout of his room at some point. Most comic artists do this for reference.

I can certainly draw one based on what we have seen.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:51 am 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:31 pm 
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NO... I havent had time to do a schematic yet....

But I have a question.... and Obvious and stupid one.......



WHY DOESNT RORSCHACH HAVE AT LEAST A PART TIME JOB ?


Yes, I know what you people are going to say.... "He uses his daytime to patrol the city disguised as an innocuous homeless guy."


Sure that's fair... except Rorschach, unlike full time police detectives, seem to only work on one case at a time.

When he puzzling out the mask killer in the GN, sure,.. he stops a rape here and a robbery there when he encounters it, .......but he's obviously not juggling a missing person investigation, a kidnapping, a gangland murder and a drug trafficking case at the same time.

He dosent even go patrolling for smaller crimes for a change of pace.... it's not like he decided "Mask Killer perplexing.... hurm... should ambush some drug dealers for nice change of pace..."

In fact he goes straight home after questioning Moloch.


About the daytime patrolling thing.... He seems to stick to that particular intersection... he finds out about blake by happening on the detectives by chance, and tails Moloch after the funeral.

But that was pretty much all he did for this 2 week (3 weeks ?) long investigation.

Despite him saying "So many deserving of retribution...so little time" He seems to have a lot of time on his hands, he watched his mail drop from noon to 8:30 pm. That's 8 and an half hours.

I mean there's really nothing keeping him from taking on a part time position of a few hours per day.... maybe a courier or something... There's also nothing keeping him from taking on some kind of freelance position, or temp work like helping out at a construction site or something.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:11 pm 
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Quote:
WHY DOESNT RORSCHACH HAVE AT LEAST A PART TIME JOB ?


After Kovacs really becomes Rorschach (i,e,, Roche girl murder), he abandons his job in the garment industry and dedicates himself to bringing "retribution" 24/7. In other words, he maintains all other activities to a minimum, which includes the Kovacs "disguise". I think a typical day for RR would be:

Afternoon:

- Circle around carrying his sign, covertly fighting crime by discreetly scanning the streets;
- Check his trashcan every now and then, salvaging goods and petty cash;
- Do chores (paint signs, buy food, pay rent, etc.);
- Write on his journal.

Whole Night:

- Overtly fight crime as Rorschach;
- Write on his journal.

Morning:

- Sleep.

Basically, he doen't have the time to get a job.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:47 am 
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Wyart wrote:
Quote:
WHY DOESNT RORSCHACH HAVE AT LEAST A PART TIME JOB ?


After Kovacs really becomes Rorschach (i,e,, Roche girl murder), he abandons his job in the garment industry and dedicates himself to bringing "retribution" 24/7. In other words, he maintains all other activities to a minimum, which includes the Kovacs "disguise". I think a typical day for RR would be:

Afternoon:

- Circle around carrying his sign, covertly fighting crime by discreetly scanning the streets;
- Check his trashcan every now and then, salvaging goods and petty cash;
- Do chores (paint signs, buy food, pay rent, etc.);
- Write on his journal.

Whole Night:

- Overtly fight crime as Rorschach;
- Write on his journal.

Morning:

- Sleep.

Basically, he doen't have the time to get a job.


we also need to take into account his growing mental instability. i don´t think he could hold onto a regular job after the roche case. i imagine he would feel overwhelmed by the pointlessness of it, hate the interaction with clueless bosses/co-workers, and feel that he was wasting precious time (even if theoretically he could spare some hours). also, i think his degrading state of clothes/hygiene/nutrition is a direct clue that he is not a part of society anymore. he has stopped caring about anything except the most basic of needs (sleep/food/shelter/clothes), everythign else is swallowed up by his fight against crime.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:26 am 
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Quote:

we also need to take into account his growing mental instability. i don´t think he could hold onto a regular job after the roche case. i imagine he would feel overwhelmed by the pointlessness of it, hate the interaction with clueless bosses/co-workers, and feel that he was wasting precious time (even if theoretically he could spare some hours). also, i think his degrading state of clothes/hygiene/nutrition is a direct clue that he is not a part of society anymore. he has stopped caring about anything except the most basic of needs (sleep/food/shelter/clothes), everythign else is swallowed up by his fight against crime.


That is an excellent assessment. I'd agree complete with that.
Any job would try and change how he interacts and present himself as well and tie up his job and I don't think he would be able to enter that world.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Of course, all of this just brings us back to the issue of what the hell are all those dishes and cuttlery doing at Rorschach's apartment. We know that he has no sink, pans, stove, or cupboard, and surely does no cooking. It is very strange to assume that such items would be the sole thing surviving a more prosperous past.

What gives?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:38 pm 
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he's a professional lazy bones.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:41 am 
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On the other side of his board it says: "Golf Sale".

ADE


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:11 am 
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During a recent re-read of the GN, Rorschach's skill when it came to being 'slight of hand' shall we say when it comes to stealing things made me wonder something. I think that, as a kid in Charleton Home, he might have been a pickpocket. I wouldn't call him the Artful Dodger of the 50's, but he could have nicked things from other kids, perhaps even snatched a few wallets in a crowded streets.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:30 am 
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Rorschach would never become a pickpocket in any sense of the word -not even as a child- for the same reason that he would never take money or valueables from the criminals he takes out: This simply does not attune with his stern sense of morality. Zero chance of that.

When he takes something from Dreiberg, Veidt, or Molloch (the only ones we do see him taking anything from) it:

- Involves small, cheap, items lying around, such as a can of beans, sugar cubes, an egg, postal stamps, or a bottle of "Nostalgia";

- Is done in plain sight or, at least, without any obvious attempt to conceal the fact, most of the times consuming the item right in front of the owner;

- Ignores far more valueable items or maybe even plain cash that could very likely be obtained if he were to search the premises but a little more.

It seems that, to him, the taking of such items is the equivalent of taking candy from a jar in someone's livingroom coffee table, sugar packets from a restaurant table, paper napkins from a diner, etc. Also, he takes more things from Dreiberg, who is not only a friend, but also relatively wealthy, and not so much from Veidt and Mollock (basically, stamps and an egg, respectively).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Wyart wrote:
Rorschach would never become a pickpocket in any sense of the word -not even as a child- for the same reason that he would never take money or valueables from the criminals he takes out: This simply does not attune with his stern sense of morality. Zero chance of that.

When he takes something from Dreiberg, Veidt, or Molloch (the only ones we do see him taking anything from) it:

- Involves small, cheap, items lying around, such as a can of beans, sugar cubes, an egg, postal stamps, or a bottle of "Nostalgia";

- Is done in plain sight or, at least, without any obvious attempt to conceal the fact, most of the times consuming the item right in front of the owner;

- Ignores far more valueable items or maybe even plain cash that could very likely be obtained if he were to search the premises but a little more.

It seems that, to him, the taking of such items is the equivalent of taking candy from a jar in someone's livingroom coffee table, sugar packets from a restaurant table, paper napkins from a diner, etc. Also, he takes more things from Dreiberg, who is not only a friend, but also relatively wealthy, and not so much from Veidt and Mollock (basically, stamps and an egg, respectively).



I think that's one of the most prudent things in this discussion.

Often times Rorschach's taking food from others is used as evidence to back "stealing"

Where as in reality... no one would really mind sugarcubes, stamps and stuff being taken. Theyre just such trivial items.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:16 am 
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Newbe on board and ... I'm not a native english speaker so I start with: "I am sorry ... that it will be sometimes difficult with me."

I don't beleve that Rorschach is stealíng money from the criminals he punished. I
think it is probably trash diving, recycling can collecting and some coins,
given by passants to him as a doomsday prophet. He did not need much money
and if he „earns“ by bagging and trash diving three or four dollars a day (and this is easy), he can pay his rent (and if it is less, than he can’t).

If he were stealing money from „his“ criminals, he would probaly have enough
money to pay his rent more frequently.

And by the way the beans, sugar cubes and cereals he eat while his visits by
Daniel – to eat some one ohters food is realy not the same like stealing.

But there is an interesting point with this bean-eating stuff by daniel.
Sharing food is the foundation for any kind of groop for living together.
Sharing food is a way for making social contact, expressig friendship. And
Ror, who had drivted away fom society, any kind of social network and ...
from Walter Kovaks, try to find a way back. To eat in Daniels kitchen his
beans is for Ror (even if Ror is not aware about) close to have dinner WITH
Daniel. Like Dan said: "Meeting him recently, it's like he wants to make friends without knowing how."

The other thing he took from Daniel was the Nostalgia After Shave. When Ror
enterd Happy Harrys Bar the one guy said after Ror mentioned that Blake was a friend: „He's got friends! Musta changes his deodorant.“
And the next time Rorschach visited Daniel he perfumed himself with After
Shave. My first thougt was, he clumsily try to do somemting against his
smell, because he want to have a friend.
Don't know if anybody see this in the same way.

But back to Topic: Rooms without a chitchen and a bathroom are not so unusual in 1985. At this time some of my friends have rooms like this. A common toilet on the flor and the shower in the nearest public swimming pool. Those Rooms were pretty cheap.


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
But there is an interesting point with this bean-eating stuff by daniel.
Sharing food is the foundation for any kind of groop for living together.
Sharing food is a way for making social contact, expressig friendship. And
Ror, who had drivted away fom society, any kind of social network and ...
from Walter Kovaks, try to find a way back. To eat in Daniels kitchen his
beans is for Ror (even if Ror is not aware about) close to have dinner WITH
Daniel. Like Dan said: "Meeting him recently, it's like he wants to make friends without knowing how."

The other thing he took from Daniel was the Nostalgia After Shave. When Ror
enterd Happy Harrys Bar the one guy said after Ror mentioned that Blake was a friend: „He's got friends! Musta changes his deodorant.“
And the next time Rorschach visited Daniel he perfumed himself with After
Shave. My first thougt was, he clumsily try to do somemting against his
smell, because he want to have a friend.
Don't know if anybody see this in the same way.


This is an excellent point. Rorschach would consider himself above such petty things as "friendship" but he is still human, and humans need each other. Rorschach is a very lonely figure, and since Daniel is the person closest to him its only natural that he would try to reach out. The saddening part is that the only way Rorschach knows how to connect with people is beating and threatening them.

So maybe he steals foodstuffs from Daniel because Daniel is the only one that he would be willing to eat dinner with?

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:44 pm 
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I have mixed emotions about the idea of him stealing from the criminals he captures- I've heard good arguments on both sides but it does seem a bit out of character to him- he's a hypocrite, but not deliberately so. I concur with the idea that he probably just collects money along the way during the day as he finds it and pockets it- and the general relationship he has with his land lady leads me to believe he doesn't always pay his rent on time, if at all.

His apartment also reminds me of my first apartment in Philadelphia- a one roomed efficiency only I had my own bathroom- but in many hostels and suchlike, I've heard of the communal bathroom thing too, so that would explain his rankness. If he does have his own bathroom, I don't think it would be necessary to show it in the comic, but he might not pay his water bills etc, which would explain the general filth. Even if he did have access to a shower and bathroom and running water and suchlike, I don't know if he'd really care to do more than wash off the layer of blood he might have accumulated from the night, but he seems like the type to just come home and crash (and in some cases even forget to remove his "uniform" as shown in the comic) it seems like personal hygiene to someone with a death wish is not a very high priority.

Very little new to add to the discussion, just throwing in my agreement to a few points.

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