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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:26 pm 
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I think its important to remember that when Night Owl I started many police officers were not armed- they had batons but often not guns and received training on how to take down better armed criminals. Once crime started taking a different turn, and as in our universe criminals became better and better armed, Hollis retired.

For Silk Specter I, she most likely would have had a lot of physical training just as a model and to keep her figure and as she started crime fighting I’m sure she stepped up her training to keep prepared. And again it was a different time. The types of criminals she went after and the fact that guns and gun violence was not quite as common place probably worked in her favor.

As was mentioned on this thread earlier the Comedian’s costume and mode of defense became more sophisticated as the criminals did (he had a gun instead of just his left hook) and I’m sure his training was always ongoing.

Dan told us about the gym he has in the basement- I’m sure he spent a long time training and probably did have some nice gadgets, like a stun gun at least, with him when he took on criminals head to head.

As for Rorschach I don’t think we should underestimate what a kid can learn about fighting and self defense living almost on his own on the streets for so many years. He then took to boxing and gymnastics in the home.

Let’s not forget that the Crimebusters went on patrol together as well. Laurie had trained for years and had Jon with her, and having a big blue god with you would probably make anyone think twice about shooting. Rorschach spent a lot of his time on patrol with Dan, safety in numbers and Dan most likely had some great gadgets.

As for Adrian, he could catch a bullet and plan for situations that hadn’t happened yet so I doubt he was caught off guard very often.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:06 am 
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TwilightLadyII wrote:
For Silk Specter I, she most likely would have had a lot of physical training just as a model and to keep her figure and as she started crime fighting I’m sure she stepped up her training to keep prepared.


I'm not sure she actually did fight anyone. After all, why risk your face when it's your main source of income? The only evidence we have of her taking down criminals are those who wanted to "surrender" to her. When Eddie attacks her, all she does is scratch his face. I'd always assumed that was her reason for pushing Laurie so hard into crimefighting, so that she'd have the physical prowess her mother lacked.

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Dan told us about the gym he has in the basement


Even in 1985, Dan is fairly muscle-bound, particularly in his limbs. He just has a load of flab as well. And we see in Chapter III that he's still quite capable of looking after himself. Either he's still working out (and just eating a lot of crap to pile on the pounds - he seems the comfort eating type), or he must have been pretty formidable back in the day.

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As for Adrian, he could catch a bullet and plan for situations that hadn’t happened yet so I doubt he was caught off guard very often.


In fairness, Adrian had never caught a bullet in anger in his life until Laurie shot at him. That's why he didn't know if it would work.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:14 pm 
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My first post here, so I'm hoping I'm not going to be basted in a hot oast for doing it wrong...*hides*

An attempt to answer the original posters questions. Here goes: *deep breath*

Rorschach seems to be a special case. We've seen that Laurie had her own troubled past, what with her mother living vicariously through her and we get teeny-tiny glimpses of the other characters' pasts...but we don't know, the way we know with Walter Kovacs: we *know* he had a fucked-up childhood; we *know* he is a fount of confusion, repressed lust, conflicting love/hate for his mother, and pure animalistic rage; we *know* he studied boxing and gymnastics at a young age and presumably during his entire time at the Charlton House.

We also, further, know that he is incredibly lethal and quick in combat...and we know he has one HELL of a reputation following him around.

He's quick, flexible, small, and feline; he's also stealthy, and with no-one knowing what is under the mask, he definitely has an aura of mystery about him. Now, speaking as someone who has studied boxing (for twelve years now, I say true, you say thank-ya), I can tell you one thing: boxing teaches you how to hit. Hard. In fact, much of boxing is about utilizing the kinetic energy contained in your muscles for maximum effect with the minimum expenditure of energy required. It teaches you how to stand and block and, perhaps most importantly, it teaches you how to evade and to accept a blow with the least amount of injury. Boxing teaches you not only how to fight to injure, but also how to fight to survive.

Combine that combat knowledge with his gymnastics skills, and you've got someone who already has a one-up on the average criminal. Now, compound his physical abilities with the Incredible Weaponized Range Finder (tm) in his head, and you've got someone who has *way* more going for him, combat-wise, than the "average criminal". I use the term "average criminal" broadly, to define everyone from pick-pockets to potential rapists; the normal human detritus he encounters on a daily-basis, in other words.

Think of it this way: would the average, normal person stand a chance in the ring with, say, Mike Tyson? Probably not. Now, how would Mike Tyson fare against, say, five normal people, in a dark alley (that Mike is familiar with, and perfectly at home in) with an entire arsenal of potential weapons at his disposal...oh, and, of course, a *massive* reputation for violence following him around? He'd probably do just fine, because the training is there, and the determination is there, and he's got an ENTIRE LIFETIME of hate and anger and repression to spur him on. Now, picture Rorschach in ear-biting Mikey's place, and I think you get my point.

Also, consider this: Rorschach has never shown any emotion, outside of anger/rage/self-righteousness, when dealing with the criminal element. The man is like a robot, and that clinical detachment flies in the face of what we, as humans, perceive as normal. This would fall under the category of psychological intimidation: a cold, calculated foe is automatically assumed to be more dangerous than a 'happy', not-so-detached foe (unless we are dealing with The Joker, but we *aren't*!) simply because the humanity isn't there.

As far as training goes, I can very easily see Walter using the facilities available in the children's home daily, up until his release, even if only as an outlet to the angst he experienced on a daily basis (and it's safe to assume that teenage!Walter was very, very angsty). Outside of the home, staying in shape isn't *that* hard; you don't *need* special equipment, despite what the media etc. throws at us daily. Flexing and stretching are free, and require nothing more than floor-space; aerobics and weight-training can be done with common household objects (so says the woman who uses laundry-detergent bottles filled with stones or water to weight-lift) and running can be done pretty much anywhere (I can totally see Walter being a cardio-freak, at least in his younger years); if you've got good muscle control, you can box without a punching-bag or any other equipment, and keep yourself in reasonably good physical condition.

Walter left the home in '56; he took up the mantle of Rorschach in '64, when he was 24, and entirely in his prime. With all the above knowledge and supposition combined, I don't see it being a stretch that he would put quite the hurt on someone, despite his rather...unintimidating stature. In fact, as far as I can tell, his stature is a definite asset: he has the ability to loom by presence alone, and if people underestimate his size, they're in for a rather nasty lesson otherwise...and that keeps the element of surprise fresh.

dejavroom wrote:
But I totally buy the Intimidation aspect of it. Think about it, remembering to take in information with all your senses: First of all, dude reeks. The olfactory sense is very powerful and is strongly connected with memory and basal emotional responses. And here they would be telling you "this guy has a very short list of priorities that doesn't include his own well-tending, but includes hurting people like me".

Then you have his reputation - this guy has sent a lot of guys to the grave, most of the times in extremely painful ways; he's an old timer, which means he's been doing it for maybe longer than you've been living, if you're a young punk... Add the monotone voice and shifting mask, and I'd say he'd have your attention for as long as he wanted to.

That could even answer for why no one tried to take a pot shot at him in that scene where he breaks Steve's fingers in his first Happy Harry appearance. Sure, it's an easy shot and all but... what if you missed?


Very well said, and entirely agreed upon...but I have *one* teensy quibble: he *hasn't* sent a lot of people to the grave, not conclusively. We know of Grice and we know of Furniss, and that's it. We have the reference to Captain Carnage, but that is (most likely) just a joke. We also have the two detectives in the beginning of the GN, but...they're detectives who have proven themselves to be lax and uncaring in the first place, and thus, their word can't be taken for gospel and must, therefore, be hearsay. Aside from the two references above, we have no conclusive proof that Rorschach has killed anyone aside from Grice and Furniss, and it irks me to no end when people say otherwise. This also goes into the fanfiction realms, when authors have Rorschach going around just *killing* people for the hell of it...grrr. However, that is a rant for another day. :)

*Wipes sweat from brow* Okay, that's it! /OMGWTF*LONG* post over

Regards,
-Katie Havok


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Quote:
and he's got an ENTIRE LIFETIME of hate and anger and repression to spur him on.


Tangent...

I hear this alot but dont understand it at all... I always see him depicted as something akin to a raging animal....

But in reality, the only time in the GN where he really loses it was killing the dogs.... the rest of the time, he is cool calm, calculating.

Rorschach isnt a font of rage... he's a font of equanimity.

He has an evenness of mind under great stress... the kind that would make other people panic or snap.

In the scene where's captured bu the police, he formulates a plan in 10 seconds, collects supplies and stakes out his position.

In grice's scene, he's not a raging animal, he methodically handcuffs the man to the stove and calmly goes about his process.

Even in the scene where he breaks the man's finger in the bar, he methodically lifts of his hand, takes the finger why the man sits confused. He breaks it and shows it to the rest of the patrons.




I dont understand why Rorschach has this wolverine like reputation as sort or raging death machine.....

He isnt enraged.....or even angry....

With the exception of the ending, Rorschach show little if any sort of emotion at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:05 am 
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Quote:
Very well said, and entirely agreed upon...but I have *one* teensy quibble: he *hasn't* sent a lot of people to the grave, not conclusively. We know of Grice and we know of Furniss, and that's it. We have the reference to Captain Carnage, but that is (most likely) just a joke.


I'd picked up on this, as well. The detectives only mention two counts of Muder One - presumably, Grice and Furniss, the only two laid against him (apart from Moloch) when he is arrested. That said, he kills three more people while in prison, though two of these were admittedly in direct self-defence.

Regarding Captain Carnage, Dan only says that Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft - he doesn't say from how high, so it's conceivable the chap could have survived. Admittedly, Dan gives his answer in response to the question "What happened to him?", so it sounds fairly final, but maybe it just cured him of his particular fetish? Also, you'd have to ask why Rorschach would murder him for something so innocuous? Of course, maybe the juxtaposition of Masked Vigilante and sex is something that Rorschach would feel particularly strongly about?

We don't get a time frame, but it must either be pre-Blaire Roche (for Dan to have heard it first hand from Rorschach), at which point Rorschach wasn't killing, or post-Blaire Roche by which time Dan was no longer working with Rorschach, so he'd have to have heard from another source (the Police, presumably) and Rorschach doesn't seem to be wanted in connection with that case.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:55 am 
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RedAngel wrote:
Quote:
and he's got an ENTIRE LIFETIME of hate and anger and repression to spur him on.
I hear this alot but dont understand it at all... I always see him depicted as something akin to a raging animal....But in reality, the only time in the GN where he really loses it was killing the dogs.... the rest of the time, he is cool calm, calculating.

Rorschach isnt a font of rage... he's a font of equanimity.


Check out chapter VI, pages 6 and 7; the "Whoreson Incident". He doesn't just fight the two bullies; he partially blinds one and possibly permanently scars the other...over taunting words. A near-classic case of PTSD (at best), misguided aggression at worst.

He ISN'T a raging animal...but he IS pissed-off, disenfranchised, disillusioned and isolated. He doesn't just go around beating people up; he takes that anger, internalizes it, and uses it to fuel his hatred against the criminal element.

Someone like Rorschach doesn't become that way because they are happy and well-adjusted. ;)

RedAngel wrote:
He has an evenness of mind under great stress... the kind that would make other people panic or snap. In the scene where's captured by the police, he formulates a plan in 10 seconds, collects supplies and stakes out his position.


That "evenness of mind" is likely the result of years of self-control on his part. You don't want to show your enemy any weakness, and to present a front on inhumanity...it's going to throw them off-center for a fraction of a second, and that tiny bit of time is all it takes to get the upper-hand.

Also, the ability to "think on your feet" isn't anything new; just go talk to a cop in a big city (like New York), or a fire-fighter, or a soldier, or anyone who has to on a regular basis; when it's a matter of survival (as Rorschach perceives it to be during the capture) the human mind can work at near light-speed. Adrenaline is released; senses are opened, taste and touch and smell become almost superhuman (by normal standards, anyways); biologists call it "The Survival Imperative".


RedAngel wrote:
In grice's scene, he's not a raging animal, he methodically handcuffs the man to the stove and calmly goes about his process.


You're right; he isn't a raging animal. He's not just flying into a rage and killing the guy--he isn't thinking about butterflies and sunshine, either. He dispenses his own form of justice upon the 'murderer', and he doesn't bat an eyelash...

...but he doesn't walk away unaffected, either.

I think it's safe to say that the Grice case hit a nerve with him (duh): he took the case for "personal reasons"; I wonder if he sees himself in the Roche girl, if he feels an empathy for/with her that stems from his own childhood. He promises the parents he'll return the child (chapter VI, page 18, panel 2) and can't, because Grice removed that possibility by killing her and feeding her to his dogs, and you can't argue that DIDN'T effect him, because:

"Shock of impact ran along my arm. Jet of warmth spattered on chest, like hot faucet. It was Kovacs who said 'Mother' then, muffled under latex. It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again."

A psychotic break. Those don't just happen; there's a rhyme and a reason and a mitigating factor, and none of it has to do with being happy, or well-adjusted, or even-keeled, or anything ELSE that would imply happiness with oneself/surroundings. When Walter Kovacs sees that (very human, very childlike) bone in the dogs mouth, he sees himself (because he sees himself in Blaire Roche), and that affects him in the worse way possible.

It, quite literally, drives him out of his mind.

I don't see him as being "depicted as a raging animal" except in really, really bad fanfiction (which I'll stop reading right away, because that just pisses me off); neither am I saying that he IS a raging animal. I'm saying he's an introvert, and he carries baggage from his screwed-up childhood, and he has a blistering hatred for all that's "wrong" with the world. I'm saying he's the perfect person to dispense his own form of justice, because he's been the victim, and he hasn't forgotten what that feels like...he also hasn't forgotten how to use those feelings that being a victim caused, and how to do something about it.

(Wow, it's *really* early here, so if this doesn't make much sense...my apologies. I haven't had my morning coffee yet. :oops:)

Regards,
-Katie Havok
(Rorshcach-fangirl extraordinaire!)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Very cogent and thoughtful posts about everyone's favorite blot-faced character! Welcome aboard Tragedy/Katie!

I am also appreciative of the above suggestion that perhaps Dan was just making a JOKE about Rorschach dropping Captain Carnage down an elevator shaft. There's nothing inherently implausible about that. He and Laurie get a good laugh out of it. I've never figured this incident resulted in a lethal end for the poor Captain, even if it happened as Dan describes it (since nowhere else is it suggested by anyone, even the police, that Rorschach killed the Captain), that it was just to teach him a lesson and perhaps cured him of his proclivities for badgering costumed heroes (might have busted a few bones good but nothing worse). But the notion that Dan made a joke at both the Captain and Rorschach's expense is an intriguing idea.

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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Wow, massively late...but better late than never, yes? (I was out-of-country on business for a month, so...*hides*)

Thanks for the welcome, piper909! I was hoping that my posts would come across positively--I tend to sound boastful and "smarty-farty" without meaning to, especially in a forum (hardy-har-har) where I can't allow my facial expressions and body-language to show that I'm joking/being tongue-in-cheek. I'm glad I didn't offend anybody, or sound too "Holier Than Thou" with my dissenting posts.

I wish I could think of a witty adjourner to end this with, or something inspiring to start this thread up again, but unfortunatly I'm far too jet-lagged and rumpled. Thanks again piper909, and Rorschach will forever live in our minds. :)

-Regards,
Katie Havok
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Yeah, as it was said, Rorschach studied boxing when he was younger and believe me, I've seen some fierce "petit" guys who fight dirty and had no training other than growing up in rough areas. I found it way more believable for him to be as rough as he was than for Silk Specter II to kick butt the way she apparently does.

But we're talking about a world where it's possible to genetically engineer and teleport a giant monster squid alien creature with psychic brains and you're arguing about "realistic"? idk, man. idk.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:51 pm 
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I'm thinking that for a deconstruction of the heroes Alan never addressed the unbelievable physical skills they have. I mean as trained as someone might be running around in a costume chasing criminals is very dangerous and I'm sure some criminals could had follow one of them and shoot them merciless. I know that is a resource he needed to use but still he made fun of most of the concept the costumes, the heroic heart, the good intentions, the soul mates, the superman but this one was not touched?...weird!

To add to Rorschach I think that he had also the advantage of attacking to kill, not to take to jail, not to immobilize till the police arrive I think is easier to take down 5 guys if he is going to go with everything he got at once, IMO.


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