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 Post subject: Re: Dan's Phallic Cowl
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:21 pm 
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I seriously doubt this was intentional.

Still, it is an interesting observation, given Dan's established sexual and emotional impotence without his suit.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
upside down package


Upside down? Given Nite Owl's sexual dysfunction, I wouldn't say this is the case.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Whimper wrote:
Quote:
upside down package


Upside down? Given Nite Owl's sexual dysfunction, I wouldn't say this is the case.


Aha, I guess i just meant a flaccid male genitalia - which would be Dan's case.

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Now, come on. If that image was larger and you traced the outline of his face/goggles showing in the cowl, you would have just drawn male genitalia - there is no denying that, no matter how hard you want to.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:07 pm 
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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:11 pm 
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SeanBateman wrote:
Now, come on. If that image was larger and you traced the outline of his face/goggles showing in the cowl, you would have just drawn male genitalia - there is no denying that, no matter how hard you want to.
Must not laugh at use of "hard", must not...
*ahem*
Very interesting ideas. Can we expand the sexuality defined by design theory to the other characters? (as in, Mods is it okay if we go there?)
I'm interested to see what visual clues everyone finds.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:17 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
Image


Brilliant. I wish Patrick Wilson could see this.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:00 pm 
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Fahnette wrote:
Can we expand the sexuality defined by design theory to the other characters? (as in, Mods is it okay if we go there?)

I'm not familiar with design theory, so that really depends on where you take it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:35 am 
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I've read a blog that speculates "altruism is a turn-on" for Dan and Laurie. After they save the people from the fire, they have sex in the Owl Ship. While the costumes "made it good" is was more of a bonus to the altruism and adrenaline rush.

From the blog:
Quote:
But back to Daniel Dreiberg (the true focal point of Moore's revolution in psychological realism)--so the guy substitutes altruism for viagra? So what? Are we still so messed up about sex that we can't imagine a person being virtuous and aroused at the same time!


More here: http://ynot.motime.com/1076032937#212232

Despite Rorschach's many hang-ups, I don't think an attraction to Dan is one of them. Even though it takes a second for Rorsharch to let go of Nite-Owl's hand when he says "You are a good friend" I don't think that was sexual. It had more to do with that Rorschach probably hasn't shaken hands with anyone (at least not without breaking their hand) in over ten years.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:16 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Fahnette wrote:
Can we expand the sexuality defined by design theory to the other characters? (as in, Mods is it okay if we go there?)

I'm not familiar with design theory, so that really depends on where you take it.
Eep, bad phrasing me!
I mean the theory that the characters' sexuality is displayed in the way they're drawn. :oops:
So nothing really over-the-top graphic then.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Fahnette wrote:
I mean the theory that the characters' sexuality is displayed in the way they're drawn. :oops:
So nothing really over-the-top graphic then.

I'm intrigued. Continue.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Fahnette wrote:
I mean the theory that the characters' sexuality is displayed in the way they're drawn. :oops:
So nothing really over-the-top graphic then.

I'm intrigued. Continue.
Sean B's example, the idea that Dan is literally wearing his biggest failing on the Owl Suit for everyone to see.
HJ's noose and the allusion to his propensity towards domination and control by Eddie.
The shoes Sally and Laurie wear, high heels as a symbol of sexual subjugation.

That kind of stuff.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Hm. Might Rorschach being wrapped up and muffled in several layers of clothing, arguably the most "grounded" costume of the bunch, speak something about his repressed feelings towards sex...?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:22 pm 
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starwolf_oakley wrote:
Despite Rorschach's many hang-ups, I don't think an attraction to Dan is one of them. Even though it takes a second for Rorsharch to let go of Nite-Owl's hand when he says "You are a good friend" I don't think that was sexual. It had more to do with that Rorschach probably hasn't shaken hands with anyone (at least not without breaking their hand) in over ten years.


Funnily enough, I sort of think that's exactly why Rorschach would be attracted to Dan.

Okay, that might sound odd but hear me out. Rorschach's life has been a series of fractured relationships. His mother beat him, the other children picked on him, and I think it's right to say that he never really had any friends at the Charleston home. He's never really had any friends at all. As street-Rorschach (Or sign-man, or Walter, or whatever name you want to use) in a lot of panels he has no speech, but is kept out by everyone else. It's probable that his short conversations with Bernard are the only human conversation he has, barring his landlady, when he's not in costume.

The only person he's ever been close to in any capacity is Daniel. And here we have a man who abhors women (Or at least the sexual side of them) and can't have a fully functioning relationship. He is not free from lust, however. (This is supported in the GN, I'll look for the quote) But instead its misplaced onto Daniel, the only human being he can comprehend talking closely with, and therefore the one he desires though he knows it's wrong.

(I'd like to point out that I don't believe homosexuality is a result of a bad upbringing or some other such thing, but Rorschach is just plain messed up and his sexuality has been very distorted)

If Rorschach lusts after anybody, it would be Daniel. It's interesting to note that the hand-holding scene directly correlates with one earlier in the novel between Dan and Laurie, which hints at his unresolved sexual attraction towards her. Both scenes are in the owlship and both pretty much have the same situation.

I hope this is understandable, and I know most people disagree with this point of view.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Rorschach isnt gay. He is just Dans friend. It was somewhat of an akward handshake and he got caught up in the sad moment instead of wanting to do anything gay.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:56 pm 
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Although I won't deny that Dan and Rorschach can act like a bickering married couple at times. . . and there is definite subtext between them . . . I still don't see Rorschach actually being sexually developed enough even to have any ability to be attracted to anyone in the first place. I always thought of him as being asexual. I'm probably just being naive :D :lol:

I've always thought the awkward handshake just mirrored the happier Dan/Rorschach handshake in chapter "The Abyss Gazes Also" page 14, panel 8 -- back in "the good days" (nostalgia, anyone?), when Rorschach wasn't as batshit crazy and was beginning his crimefighting with Dan. Rorschach pauses because it reminds him of better times.

(PS... Interesting thing I didn't notice before about chapter vi., page 14, panel 8... Dan is clasping Rorschach's hand with BOTH of his hands, which seems... intimate ... hurm... even more subtext, I guess...)


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 Post subject: Re: Captain Metrosexual
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:37 am 
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holtor wrote:
If americans would watch such movies more, than Hollywood would start producing/copying them. I think the problem is instead that almost all americans strongly believe that they should not watch any movies produced outside their own country, except maybe the occasional eastern. This is not at all Hollywood's problem; Hollywood is merely reacting to it's customers preferences. The supply is already there anyway, just not the demand. Who needs Hollywood to watch good movies though?


Sorry for the derailment, but are you trolling?

I'm curious what country you live in, because it plainly isn't the U.S., nor do you display much understanding of the way the movie machine in Hollywood works. Generally the only movies that get made (or that get the massive amount of dollars necessary for marketing a successful movie in the U.S.) are those that cater to the lowest common denominator, because that ensures the widest possible paying audience. No films that cause too much discomfort or make one think too seriously about a topic because, once again, that would impact the bottom line too negatively. Sex and violence sell; intellectually challenging movies seldom do. So you see the same recycled story lines, over and over again.

That is a decision not of Americans but of Hollywood money men, plain and simple. It's not a reaction to some sort of 'Buy American' mentality, it's a desire to make the most money. Witness as well the multitude of films made in the same genre as a groundbreaking film almost immediately after it becomes a major success, and the number of remakes and sequels that get made. My roommate and I often joke about how Hollywood can't come up with anything new or original when we see a commercial for the newest version of Friday the 13th or Saw XXVII: The Final Chapter (Until We Have Nothing Better To Make).

And when was the last time you saw foreign film companies spending large amounts of money to market their films in America? Almost without exception, word of mouth (and Internet) are about the only way a foreign film makes much money at all here.

Nice stereotype of Americans, btw, based on absolutely no evidence.

I, for one, as my handle might indicate, am a HUGE Kurosawa fan. Can you imagine Hollywood making movies like that today? Never happen.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:01 am 
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Actually to be fair, Kurosawa's films do get remade in Hollywood some times, Last Man Standing is a good example of this, being a direct rip-off of Yojimbo. I agree though, its often that people are unaware of the fact that films from foreign directors and in languages other than english, and therefore do not get shown.

This is also partially to do with the amount of money it takes to market a film, but also Hollywood isn't going to make it easy for foreign film-makers to be successful in the US since they do not want their monopoly on the film-goers $'s to ge threatened.

Usually as soon as a talented film-maker pokes their head above the parapet, someone in a Hollywood studio will offer them a film to direct to bring them into the mainstream of cinema and therefore control the profits made from their films.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:42 am 
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In Chapter 2, the Comedian realizes Hooded Justice is a sexual sadist. This is confirmed in Chapter 9 with a letter in Sally Jupiter's scrapbook. The letter also says how Nelson "Captain Metropolis" Gardner and H.J. act like an old married couple and are getting hard to cover for.

Is this letter the first time in WATCHMEN we learn Captain Metropolis was gay?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Darkweaver wrote:
Actually to be fair, Kurosawa's films do get remade in Hollywood some times, Last Man Standing is a good example of this, being a direct rip-off of Yojimbo.

That's not very surprising considering that Kurosawa cowrote Last Man Standing. I'll bet it was sold to Hollywood executives as an Americanized Yojimbo.

Darkweaver wrote:
I agree though, its often that people are unaware of the fact that films from foreign directors and in languages other than english, and therefore do not get shown.

The Internet is making things easier, but you need the wherewithal to look for foreign movies in the first place, and have some idea of where to look for them.

Darkweaver wrote:
This is also partially to do with the amount of money it takes to market a film, but also Hollywood isn't going to make it easy for foreign film-makers to be successful in the US since they do not want their monopoly on the film-goers $'s to ge threatened.

True. However, theaters are independent from Hollywood. A creative marketing director could find ways to sell a movie to the various theater chains, for instance starting with a small release in selected theaters and ramping it up when the movie does well in those theaters. There's also the option of direct-to-DVD release.

Darkweaver wrote:
Usually as soon as a talented film-maker pokes their head above the parapet, someone in a Hollywood studio will offer them a film to direct to bring them into the mainstream of cinema and therefore control the profits made from their films.

And then that same studio will do everything it can to water down this new director's movie to coincide with its conception of what will sell. And, being new to the Hollywood machine, he/she is unlikely to have the creative control necessary to be able to counter that. So you end up with a movie little different from the rest and/or a disgruntled director vowing never to work with Hollywood again.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:22 pm 
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I don't think Rorschach has many sexual desires, in fact I think he finds it rather ugly, and was scarred by the first time he found out about it, as you can see in the drawing in Kovacs profile at the back of VI. As he had no one to talk to as a child, I think these views manifested inside him. Even if he did have sexual feelings, I don't think he is emotionally developed enough to act on them, as he was never really given the chance to grow up in the way that most people do, so lived his life under a mask as Rorschach.

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