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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Hourglass wrote:
Although I won't deny that Dan and Rorschach can act like a bickering married couple at times. . . and there is definite subtext between them . . . I still don't see Rorschach actually being sexually developed enough even to have any ability to be attracted to anyone in the first place. I always thought of him as being asexual. I'm probably just being naive :D :lol:

I've always thought the awkward handshake just mirrored the happier Dan/Rorschach handshake in chapter "The Abyss Gazes Also" page 14, panel 8 -- back in "the good days" (nostalgia, anyone?), when Rorschach wasn't as batshit crazy and was beginning his crimefighting with Dan. Rorschach pauses because it reminds him of better times.

(PS... Interesting thing I didn't notice before about chapter vi., page 14, panel 8... Dan is clasping Rorschach's hand with BOTH of his hands, which seems... intimate ... hurm... even more subtext, I guess...)


Asexuality implies no sexual attraction whatsoever, which I don't think is strictly true. His recall of the dream he had at Charleston home, for example, mentions he had 'dirty feelings' afterwards. And in Chapter V page 18 Panel 6 Rorschach states 'Putting them on, I abandoned my disguise and became myself, free from fear or weakness or lust'. His disguise is Walter Kovacs, in a way, so I would take it that Rorschach has sexual desires but inhibits them, locking them away inside. As a poster above mentions, his outfit is not tight-fitting in anyway, not sexual at all- a sharp contrast to Laurie's.

Plus, Rorschach is supposed to be a hypocrite. Take his condemnation of Veidt and his adoration of Truman. It would be more in his character to condemn sex whilst still having sexual thoughts, or even to condemn homosexuals whilst having homosexual thoughts. I mean, if he's going to lust after anybody, it'd probably be Dan, though he'd hide it away...

Nice point on the handshake- I hadn't noticed that before, not how personal it was... The two scenes mirror each other quite nicely, but I think the Dan/Laurie scene is also very close and can't really be ignored.

tbone wrote:
I don't think Rorschach has many sexual desires, in fact I think he finds it rather ugly, and was scarred by the first time he found out about it, as you can see in the drawing in Kovacs profile at the back of VI. As he had no one to talk to as a child, I think these views manifested inside him. Even if he did have sexual feelings, I don't think he is emotionally developed enough to act on them, as he was never really given the chance to grow up in the way that most people do, so lived his life under a mask as Rorschach.


I would sort of agree there. I personally believe Rorschach has sexual feelings but is loathe to act on them, and probably unable- his mind probably wouldn't be able to take performing the act himself. I find it hard to believe he and Dan were making lurve in the owlship (If Dan even were gay...) or that Rorschach ever hooked up with anybody, male or female.

I do like the idea he's still that same frightened child underneath the mask... the whole black/white dichotomy is rather immature...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:23 am 
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Werewolf wrote:
I would sort of agree there. I personally believe Rorschach has sexual feelings but is loathe to act on them, and probably unable- his mind probably wouldn't be able to take performing the act himself. I find it hard to believe he and Dan were making lurve in the owlship (If Dan even were gay...) or that Rorschach ever hooked up with anybody, male or female.


I was about to write that of course they didn't actually have sex, but you know, to Rorschach, who hasn't had any physical contact (excluding violence) in years, the handshake pretty much IS sex. Touching someone you care about, your partner, isn't that the essence of sex? It's not surprising that he loves it so much.

I guess the exchange can be written off as friendship, nostalgia, whatever, but there are details that make me think maybe the two were more than that. After quitting adventuring (and cutting off contact with Rorschach), Dan becomes impotent. Isn't it worth noting that Rorschach then calls him "soft"? (p. 15, ch. 6) And immediately after the handshake reunion, Dan's in the mood for "plumbing the depths." Sounds like anal sex to me. (Similarly, another meaning of the verb "plumb" is "to make vertical." Kinda mirrors how his reintroduction to adventuring with Laurie made him, uh, vertical, I think.)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:01 pm 
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In looking at the "Adrian at Studio 54" scene during the opening credits to the movie, I started wondering if maybe Adrian was just bi-sexual in a "Hey, who *wasn't* bi-sexual during the 1970s?" sort of thing. And given the tone of the movie and the book, I don't think neither Moore nor Snyder would have been afraid of politically correct backlash in making "the villain who wants world peace" gay. (Political correctness didn't really exist in 1986, and Alan Moore's never been afraid of it.) Like Rorschach, Adrian comes across as too dedicated/obsessed to waste time on sexual relations.

But the graphic novel "extras" give an interesting twist even to that. In the Nova Express interview at the end of CHAPTER XI, Adrian says how he discovered some Pentagon officials out to introduce an "designer virus" into Africa and stopped them. Yes, there have been conspiracy theories about the origins of the AIDS virus, and that's one of them. Is that another hint of Moore's or just his own take on a mid-80s conspiracy theory?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:49 pm 
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I agree with those who've pointed out bits and pieces that seem to indicate that Walter Kovacs is not in fact free from lust. I even lend some credence to the idea that maybe he has a misguided attraction to Dan, the only person in the world who's willing to put up with his bullshit. The handshake is really the only solid indicator for this, though, so who knows--but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to, especially in light of the parallel to the earlier scene with Dan holding Laurie's hand for too long.

To be honest I suspect Kovacs is just a wiry little ball of repressed sexual desire, though. Toward women, at the very least. In the flashback to working in the garment factory, he looks visibly upset about being confronted by women's underclothes, and when he takes home the Kitty Genovese dress, he has to "cut it until it doesn't look like a woman anymore." And he makes a point to say he "never liked" Laurie's costume. It's clear that the female body bothers him. Clothing traditionally associated with female sexuality bothers him. Even taking into consideration the way he was first exposed to the sex act, it's hard to say why the female body would always be so problematic for him. Unless it really turns him on.

He undoubtedly hates sex as a concept (I would argue it's because he's terrified of it). If you think sex is vile, you are probably going to be profoundly upset by getting aroused. His discomfort with the female form in general is a pretty strong argument in favor of him having sexual urges toward women.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:36 pm 
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SeanBateman wrote:
Whimper wrote:
Quote:
upside down package


Upside down? Given Nite Owl's sexual dysfunction, I wouldn't say this is the case.


Aha, I guess i just meant a flaccid male genitalia - which would be Dan's case.

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Now, come on. If that image was larger and you traced the outline of his face/goggles showing in the cowl, you would have just drawn male genitalia - there is no denying that, no matter how hard you want to.


Another interesting thing: on Chapter 7 Page 27 Panel 1, take a look at the shape on the button.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:38 am 
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Circusdog wrote:
I agree with those who've pointed out bits and pieces that seem to indicate that Walter Kovacs is not in fact free from lust. I even lend some credence to the idea that maybe he has a misguided attraction to Dan, the only person in the world who's willing to put up with his bullshit. The handshake is really the only solid indicator for this, though, so who knows--but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to, especially in light of the parallel to the earlier scene with Dan holding Laurie's hand for too long.

To be honest I suspect Kovacs is just a wiry little ball of repressed sexual desire, though. Toward women, at the very least. In the flashback to working in the garment factory, he looks visibly upset about being confronted by women's underclothes, and when he takes home the Kitty Genovese dress, he has to "cut it until it doesn't look like a woman anymore." And he makes a point to say he "never liked" Laurie's costume. It's clear that the female body bothers him. Clothing traditionally associated with female sexuality bothers him. Even taking into consideration the way he was first exposed to the sex act, it's hard to say why the female body would always be so problematic for him. Unless it really turns him on.

He undoubtedly hates sex as a concept (I would argue it's because he's terrified of it). If you think sex is vile, you are probably going to be profoundly upset by getting aroused. His discomfort with the female form in general is a pretty strong argument in favor of him having sexual urges toward women.


Hurm. Let us, also, not forget that he has a possible wet-dream (likely his first) when dreaming about his mother engaged in a sexual act. Even if it isn't a wet dream, something happened: "I had feelings when I woke up. Dirty feelings, thoughts and stuff. The dream it sort of upset me, physically. I couldn't help it. I feel bad just talking about it."

Dreaming about his MOTHER turned him on. Now, I'm not now (nor have I ever been) a teenaged boy; however, I'm sure waking up, finding yourself having dreamed sexually about your MOTHER, and the resulting physical effects (i.e. arousal), would be discomfiting.

Also, because I'm short on time right now: at any point in the GN does it explicitly state that Rorschach abhors homosexuality? Or is this just an assumption based on his (seeming) inability to relate to ANYONE on a sexual level, and his puritanical views on sexuality/woman/virtue?

Regards,
-Katie Havok
(Closet Dan/Rorschach slash-fiend...)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:56 am 
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tragedy wrote:
Also, because I'm short on time right now: at any point in the GN does it explicitly state that Rorschach abhors homosexuality? Or is this just an assumption based on his (seeming) inability to relate to ANYONE on a sexual level, and his puritanical views on sexuality/woman/virtue?


well, there is the famous line about rorschach suspecting adrian of being homosexual ... "must remember to investigate further". i always thought that rorschach with his right-wing/ultra-conservative views MUST feel homosexuality is wrong, on principle. he might not feel strongly about it or i guess moore would have included some more hints or stronger language. i´d guess it´s on parr with rorschach´s attitude towards prostittion and prostitutes: it´s morally wrong and filthy, but he won´t actively prosecute those "wrong-doers". maybe it´s also because he´s generally uncomfortable with sexuality, so he´d try to avoid contact with this realm ...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:12 pm 
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On a slightly different note, is it just me who thought this image had sexual tones to it?

Image

The flamethrower clearly replaces the Comedian's dick, the two grenades on his belt are the balls. Complemented by his sweaty, ecstatic face and the position of his left hand. He's clearly jerking off all over Vietnam.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:35 pm 
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NewFrontiersman wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it just me who thought this image had sexual tones to it?

Image

The flamethrower clearly replaces the Comedian's dick, the two grenades on his belt are the balls. Complemented by his sweaty, ecstatic face and the position of his left hand. He's clearly jerking off all over Vietnam.

He did knock someone up while he was there... murder of the pregnant Vietnamese woman as metaphor for what he did in her country?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:32 pm 
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NewFrontiersman wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it just me who thought this image had sexual tones to it?

Image

The flamethrower clearly replaces the Comedian's dick, the two grenades on his belt are the balls. Complemented by his sweaty, ecstatic face and the position of his left hand. He's clearly jerking off all over Vietnam.

A fascinating idea. I could easily see the Comedian thinking along the same line.

Or, to put it in a less sexual and more derogatory note, maybe he's pissing all over Vietnam. He did pretty much consider the place a giant pile of shit, anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
NewFrontiersman wrote:
On a slightly different note, is it just me who thought this image had sexual tones to it?

Image

The flamethrower clearly replaces the Comedian's dick, the two grenades on his belt are the balls. Complemented by his sweaty, ecstatic face and the position of his left hand. He's clearly jerking off all over Vietnam.

A fascinating idea. I could easily see the Comedian thinking along the same line.

Or, to put it in a less sexual and more derogatory note, maybe he's pissing all over Vietnam. He did pretty much consider the place a giant pile of shit, anyway.



What a great point. This is what I love about the forums, there is always something new. I haven'y posted much in a while because there is so much to read on this forum!
The flames from the flamethrower now kind of look like his come. I do kind of feel that Vietnam was a bit of a wet dream for him, as he could kill anyone and pretty much do what he wanted. I think the point about the Juxtaposition of the treatment of the Vietnamese woman and Blake's feelings about the country are spot on. He treats them both in the same way.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:56 pm 
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tragedy wrote:
Circusdog wrote:
I agree with those who've pointed out bits and pieces that seem to indicate that Walter Kovacs is not in fact free from lust. I even lend some credence to the idea that maybe he has a misguided attraction to Dan, the only person in the world who's willing to put up with his bullshit. The handshake is really the only solid indicator for this, though, so who knows--but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to, especially in light of the parallel to the earlier scene with Dan holding Laurie's hand for too long.

To be honest I suspect Kovacs is just a wiry little ball of repressed sexual desire, though. Toward women, at the very least. In the flashback to working in the garment factory, he looks visibly upset about being confronted by women's underclothes, and when he takes home the Kitty Genovese dress, he has to "cut it until it doesn't look like a woman anymore." And he makes a point to say he "never liked" Laurie's costume. It's clear that the female body bothers him. Clothing traditionally associated with female sexuality bothers him. Even taking into consideration the way he was first exposed to the sex act, it's hard to say why the female body would always be so problematic for him. Unless it really turns him on.

He undoubtedly hates sex as a concept (I would argue it's because he's terrified of it). If you think sex is vile, you are probably going to be profoundly upset by getting aroused. His discomfort with the female form in general is a pretty strong argument in favor of him having sexual urges toward women.


Hurm. Let us, also, not forget that he has a possible wet-dream (likely his first) when dreaming about his mother engaged in a sexual act. Even if it isn't a wet dream, something happened: "I had feelings when I woke up. Dirty feelings, thoughts and stuff. The dream it sort of upset me, physically. I couldn't help it. I feel bad just talking about it."

Dreaming about his MOTHER turned him on. Now, I'm not now (nor have I ever been) a teenaged boy; however, I'm sure waking up, finding yourself having dreamed sexually about your MOTHER, and the resulting physical effects (i.e. arousal), would be discomfiting.

Also, because I'm short on time right now: at any point in the GN does it explicitly state that Rorschach abhors homosexuality? Or is this just an assumption based on his (seeming) inability to relate to ANYONE on a sexual level, and his puritanical views on sexuality/woman/virtue?

Regards,
-Katie Havok
(Closet Dan/Rorschach slash-fiend...)


Yeah the fact that he got turned on by his mother means that I don't think he's gay. He's attracted to women, I think. It's why he was uncomfortable working in that place with women's clothing when he was a teen too. If he wasn't attracted to females, he wouldn't feel so awkward handling their clothing. It seemed like it kind of made him aroused and he felt bad for having those feelings and doesn't want to view women as sex objects.

He's probably very easily turned on by females.

I'm not sure if he thinks all sex is bad....I doubt that he does. I mean remember when he knows what Dan and Laurie are doing at Adrien's place? I don't know if he actually knows but he seems to since the ink blot on his mask seems to form that same shape as the blot in the psychological test that reminded him of his mother and that guy having sex for money....except that this time the figures in the ink blot appeared closer together like it was more intimate and romantic. It'd probably be very hard for Rorschach to form a really close bond with someone though since even forming just a friendship is hard for him....let alone a romantic relationship. I don't even think many girls would try to bother with him since he seems like someone who'd be incredibly hard to get to know. He's very anti-social.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:43 pm 
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i wont judge...but this topic is just weird....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Hourglass wrote:
Although I won't deny that Dan and Rorschach can act like a bickering married couple at times. . .


This made me smile like the Comedian in 'Nam. I was instantly reminded of a line from the movie, where Dan and Rorschach are on Archie flying to Karnak and there's the "icing problem". The ships starts malfunctioning and Rorschach shouts "DANIEL, NEED TO GET INNER EAR CHECKED! PULL UP SHARPLY OR I'LL--!"

Reminds me of my mother on car trips...

While I am a Niteschach shipper, I don't think Rorschach really has the emotional capacity for any form of relationship, sexual or otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Dreiberg wrote:
i wont judge...but this topic is just weird....


What's weird about having mature, intelligent discussion of sexuality?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Dreiberg wrote:
i wont judge...but this topic is just weird....


Oh sorry, we'll translate for you. Hahaha boobies, hahaha P.P.

Happy?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:58 pm 
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It makes me wonder what he may have thought of the book as a whole.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:43 pm 
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JiangWei23 wrote:
Hm. Might Rorschach being wrapped up and muffled in several layers of clothing, arguably the most "grounded" costume of the bunch, speak something about his repressed feelings towards sex...?


Speaking of his outfit....he's also the one who wears the outfit where by he could get turned on without anyone noticing. LOL. If the other male characters got turned on you'd probably be able to tell since their outfits are....well.....

lol. If Rorschach ever gets turned on by anything, he obviously hides it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:33 pm 
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SilkOwl wrote:
Dreiberg wrote:
i wont judge...but this topic is just weird....


Oh sorry, we'll translate for you. Hahaha boobies, hahaha P.P.

Happy?


i don't appreciate being treated as if i am a child, especially be someone who wont give me a chance to explain myself.

now, asshole,

although i greatly appreciate your devotion to the graphic novel and its frequent symbolism(subtle or otherwise) i feel being such huge fans of the novel may make you see things that weren't intended or aren't there.

please take this into consideration instead of insulting me, it really gives me an idea on how welcoming and friendly the members here are to a newbie offering input.

.']['.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:18 pm 
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^ I think SilkOwl was just making a crude joke, Dreiberg. No need to take offense.

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