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 Post subject: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:59 pm 
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No, I'm not talking about the alternate 1985 where Biff is rich and owns a casino. I'm talking about Alan Moore's alternate 1985 timeline where the U.S wins the Vietnam War and Nixon is President for, like, five terms.

When someone raised the point of what pop songs should be in the film, it got me thinking? How much unbelievable music came out of the late 60's and the mire of the endless Vietnam War? CSNY's "Ohio." etc. Not to mention all of the music that era influenced up to 1985. So, how can we pick songs for the film that may not have even been written due to the alternate timeline's having different infulential events?

How would these alternate events have effected other "red letter" historical events that have shaped our world today? Like...

1. The Berlin Wall. Would it have ever even gone up?
2. Film and Television. James Bond movies, for example. I'd like to think in Moore's timeline instead of Bond, Connery is best known for his character in a series of Movies based on Ian Fleming's popular Pirate novels.
3. The Chernobyl and Three Mile Island disasters. With all of the advancements Dr. Manhattan brought on, would the world have needed to flirt with these power sources?

If there are any Poly-Sci majors on this forum, its your big chance to impress everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:06 pm 
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Hopefully, in Watchmen's 1985, a Flock of Seagulls never existed. Ever.


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:11 pm 
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I'm surprised nobody has commented here. I thought some of you would have some interesting insight here...

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:12 am 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
3. The Chernobyl and Three Mile Island disasters. With all of the advancements Dr. Manhattan brought on, would the world have needed to flirt with these power sources?

I should think that if Doc Manhattan could help invent a way to synthesize enough lithium to power all the cars in the world, they wouldn't need nuclear power.

There's also the Watergate scandal to consider. The Watergate scandal didn't just tarnish Nixon -- that affair cost the Commander-In-Chief position a lot of prestige that it has never completely recovered. So, the Watchmen government circa 1985 would have considerably more trust and prestige than it did -- and still does -- in reality.

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:02 pm 
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A subject close to Alan Moore's heart at the time (it prompted him to write the majority of V for Vendetta a few years earlier after all) - Margaret Thatcher never became the United Kingdom's Prime Minister.

You've got to love his wry satirical swipe with the Cowboy actor in the White House comment as well, who in the alternate 1985 will also bear the initials RR (full circle back to Rorschach's sig/Rum Runner, of course... art imitates life with yet Mo(o)re fearful symmetry).


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:56 am 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has commented here. I thought some of you would have some interesting insight here...

RUDE! ;p

I'm kind of curious about what happened with Watergate in Watchmenland. Looks like Nixon was never impeached if he's still there.


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:06 am 
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Roto13 wrote:
I'm kind of curious about what happened with Watergate in Watchmenland. Looks like Nixon was never impeached if he's still there.

I would guess in that timeline there was no Watergate break-in because Nixon would not be so paranoid since his presidency was pretty much solid as a rock.

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:16 am 
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Roto13 wrote:
DoomsdayClock wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has commented here. I thought some of you would have some interesting insight here...

RUDE! ;p

I'm kind of curious about what happened with Watergate in Watchmenland. Looks like Nixon was never impeached if he's still there.

I forget where it is exactly, and I don't have the book with me, but there's a Mars flashback that implies what happens.

Some generic politicians/bureaucrats/lobbyists/whatever are talking with the Comedian about two journalists who were found in a parking garage -- Woodward and Bernstein. The implication is that they were killed before they could break Watergate. The Comedian himself may have killed them.

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:14 pm 
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Yup - IX.20.4/5.

And those "generic politicians/bureaucrats/lobbyists/whatever " are actually among some of Nixon's infamous White House Plumbers of reality, including G. Gordon Liddy on whom Moore actually modelled aspects of Edward Blake's persona. Will today's movie audiences pick up on all these little history lessons that crop up throughout Watchmen should Snyder see fit to include the more obscure ones other than the blatant appearance of JFK, I wonder?


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 Post subject: Alternate lifestyles
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:31 am 
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There must be other political pressures at work in this 1985 as it is difficult to imagine such open homosexuality after all those Nixon administrations. Perhaps there is an extremely liberal congress. It does seem that the U.S. electorate prefers to keep the legislative and executive branches at odds. I would imagine that Adrian Veidt's political and financial support helps this cause.

I would also imagine, though we see no sign of it, that the U.S. is not very popular with the international community. We see in our own world the way the U.S. behaves when it is the only superpower. With Jon in the game, I would imagine that Nixon amped up his international ambition. So, I'll guess that an intimidated Europe hated America. Perhaps Europe withheld its sense of fashion and hence, in Watchmenland, people run around in those horrible earflap hats... which I suspect have built in wiring for stereo systems or something as people wearing them seem distracted and isolated. ipodhats?

And what's with the little pipettes? I can't imagine a more inefficient and messy way to smoke something. Seems odd. Maybe they smoke something besides tobacco?


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:25 pm 
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And let's not forget Vietnam.

Again, I don't remember where this is and I can't look it up, but there's a newspaper headline visible somewhere in Chapter I that reads "Vietnam made the 51st state," or something like that. This would probably explain the Asian influence we see all over Watchmen, since Vietnam would've been a territory of the U.S. leading up to that.

How would a state in Asia affect Capitol Hill, I wonder?

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:41 pm 
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A source of cheap labor to build those proposed lunar silos, probably. :|


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:05 pm 
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CLINT FLICKER wrote:
A source of cheap labor to build those proposed lunar silos, probably. :|

Nah, it wouldn't be so cheap to ship 'em over from Vietnam.

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:14 pm 
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Why ship them? Just blast them straight to the moon from Saigon. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:32 pm 
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There is alot of old world empire stuff in this.

I mean there is the whole theme of asian subjegation. It just gets downright nasty the way Ozymandias treats the few vietnamese characters in this. I mean, has anyone actually thought what it would be like if there was a 51st state in that part of the world? We are talking a seriously screwd up generation growing up newly american.

There is also a theme of orientalism, like this fantasy of an exotic culture that doesn't exist. Viedts the cause of the whole fake utopia I am guessing. I think that there would be alot of people buying into this. Especially if a major company started selling it to them. I guess samurai stuff got caught up in the heavy metal scene in this world.

Southeast asian seems to be more glorifyed like you have the promient surrelist painter and you got the gunga diner...which i really liked because I love takeout tandoori. People look a bit more healthier in the novel's world. Maybe were better off without mcdonalds as the main thing.

Considering that the author is british it makes sense for indian people to be featured in this. There is alot of that in england. I remember seeing a lot of brit-indian people on my trip to london.

I'm no poli-sci, journalism's my thing, but I am guessing it's a very liberal congress.


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:27 pm 
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well, you have come over more ideas than I would ever have, but well, what about chips and computers in general?

Would there be any microchips? Because well, Jon is smart enough to invent stuff like that - becuse he really sees the atoms - and he could make much faster PCs than those sold today.

Or - quantum physics and the theory of superstrings. As Jon is able to see even the smallest things, he would be able to tell us, how the small quarks and protons really behave, and - maybe - why (if the scientins would understand him at least a little bit).

I wonder about all the science in general - would there be any point for actually doing some serious science, when there is everything-knowing-everything-doing Jon?

And worst - what would happen, if Jon leaves and go somewhere else - suddenly, without notice? It would be very fast shock for whole society, based mostly on him (of course, scientists could find some way, how to make another Jons :) )

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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:21 pm 
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Quote:
newspaper headline visible somewhere in Chapter I that reads "Vietnam made the 51st state,"

Dozens of readings, and I've never noticed that. That certainly explains the "Viet Bronx" graffito seen not long after the newspaper in question.

Another thing I just noticed: All of the cars seem to be American. Buicks, in fact. Which I guess, barring some international trade agreement, should have been obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:24 am 
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UCONNgirl wrote:
There is alot of old world empire stuff in this.

I mean there is the whole theme of asian subjegation. It just gets downright nasty the way Ozymandias treats the few vietnamese characters in this. I mean, has anyone actually thought what it would be like if there was a 51st state in that part of the world? We are talking a seriously screwd up generation growing up newly american.

I would disagree that Ozy has treated them poorly in any respect. Not sure what you are referring to here, unless you're speaking of the poisoning near the end. They were Vietcong refugees from the war. He took them in and housed them at his Antarctic retreat; safe from any international laws or prosecution. The servants also speak glowingly of Ozy in the Doug Roth article (insert between Chap. 11 and 12).

Now Eddie Blake, on the other hand, did some nasty things to the Vietnamese!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:23 pm 
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ManOWar wrote:
I would disagree that Ozy has treated them poorly in any respect. Not sure what you are referring to here, unless you're speaking of the poisoning near the end.

I think poisoning is enough to constitute poor treatment.


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 Post subject: Re: The alternate 1985
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:46 pm 
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I see where you are coming from Man0war. I got the impression that the character treated them like children, which while is not damaging in first apperances it can be. The character represents Imperialism for me or at least the authors view of it. There is something distinctly american about viedt's brand of imperialism. He uses celebrity image and products, even a newspaper if I am not mistaken to sell his view point, and he does. He even sells his viewpoint to the self appointed saviors of mankind in the room. He does what he thinks is best for people...not what is best for people.

Since I hopped on this train of thought I am going to go a bit further. Eddie is anarchy for me, the rambo style of hero, in the alternate 1985 that viedt is trying to create his justice style cant last very long.

The Doug Routh article seemed like a fluff peice to me. But perhaps that is the man Viedt once was. A bright young optomistic man that spend to long trying to solve all the worlds problems. Maybe he did respect his servets once. Asian male subjegation just gets to me is all. I see so much of it in subtle was that its kind of disturbing.

I think that computers are still old skool. Like wang old skool. I only even know what that is because I had one as a kid. I was born in 1988 so I missed much of the time frame of this book.

Oh, god so many of my friends would be laughing at me right now if they knew I actually signed up for a fansite but I dont care. I like this.

Going back to the ideal types...what else do all you guys see in that. I'm not quite sure what Dan and Juspecyzk are supposed to be. Apathy? Intellectual side?

Thoughts? Any character's fine. I know Walter is going to be big.

I am wondering if anyone else sees the cold war metaphor in this, the cold war parable always goes something like five men are in a room filled with gasoline and each of them is making matches. Then you have the Eddie's who let them nuke each other and let got sort it out, The Laurie's who are to wrapped up in their own problems and then morn after the damage is done, the Dans that worry silently at night but intellectually refuse to act. The Adrians that plan and execute the orders, bending things to their benefit. The jons who push the button, and then leave the world to its own devices. The only one that acts is Walter. Viewed as the most overzelous, angry and insane of all of them, and yet he is the most sane person in the room. He is the only one that cant justify killing people. He doesnt justify lying to people.

How do these characters fit into the cold war metaphor? Any ideas? Anyone have an alternate interpretation?


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