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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:31 pm 
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At the crime busters meeting, the attendees include Rorschach, Dan, The comedian, Adrian, Laurie, Dr. Manhattan, Captain Metropolis, and Janey Slater.

We dont know much about Captaim Metropolis, and Janey Slater is a physicist..... Scratch them.


Rorschach's life, his convictions, motives, and reasons behind his actions are well explored.

We know why he fights crime, his relentless determination, attention to detail and dedication that makes him a peerless detective.

This thread is not about him.






As crime fighters what do all of these other people do?


Why was Dr. Manhattan at the crimebuster's meeting?

Given his nature one can hardly picture him fighting crime.
Simultaneously, he sees the past the present and the future.... he sees all the crime that he has encountered, their resolutions, all the crime he will encounter, murders and atrocities yet to be premeditated.

Yet it doesnt matter. A serial killer can take the lives of hundreds, but really, their horrifically mutilated bodies contain that same number of molecues as the horrified cops cordoning off the crime scene... nothing has changed.

The Comedian seem to lack any kind of moral code. His gratuitous heavy handed methods in something as simple as crowd control makes it difficult to envision him making moral decisions on punishing criminals as well any kind of investigative procedure. He is apathetic towards crime as the threat of nuclear war makes individual tragedies insignificant.

A woman being raped in an alley?...Hilarious. Little girl kidnapped, killed and fed to dogs? Insignificant. Will mean nothing the day nukes fly.


Adrian lacks respect for human life and the individual. He kills millions to stop nuclear war.... he thinks nothing of killing his servants, the scientists, writers, artists that worked tirelessly for his cause.

People are statistics to him. They matter in number. No, one more body that lines the foundations of his utopia dosent matter, nor will three more, a hundred more, a thousand more.

His philanthropic efforts work on a scale of sheer numbers. 60 million dollars raised, 40 tons of grain distributed to the hungry...etc..etc..etc.

It's hard to envision him tracking down a kidnapped child, a murder, punishing an arsonist, or wasting anytime on an individual.

Laurie, I'm not sure what she does, but she seems to lack the decisiveness to punish wrong doing, and the analytical ability to investigate. She seems to lack the convictions that fuel vigilantism and the desire to bring people to justice.

Dan seems to have worked with Ror for most of his crime fighting career.






With the exception of Rorschach, and Dan..... all of these people seem poorly suited to Vigilantism, initiating and carrying out independent criminal investigations, and generally being crimefighters over all.


What the heck were they doing then ?!?


As crime fighters what do all of these other people do?


Last edited by RedAngel on Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:15 am 
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A fascinating topic.

RedAngel wrote:
Why was Dr. Manhattan at the crimebuster's meeting?

Given his nature one can hardly picture him fighting crime.
Simultaneously, he sees the past the present and the future.... he sees all the crime that he has encountered, their resolutions, all the crime he will encounter, murders and atrocities yet to be premeditated.

Yet it doesnt matter. A serial killer can take the lives of hundreds, but really, their horrifically mutilated bodies contain that same number of molecues as the horrified cops cordoning off the crime scene... nothing has changed.

Well, Nixon had still insisted that Dr. Manhattan fight crime. As such, I imagine that Dr. Manhattan's handlers had encouraged his contribution to a high-profile vigilante group.

RedAngel wrote:
The Comedian seem to lack any kind of moral code. His gratuitous heavy handed methods in something as simple as crowd control makes it difficult to envision him making moral decisions on punishing criminals as well any kind of investigative procedure. He is apathetic towards crime as the threat of nuclear war makes individual tragedies insignificant.

A woman being raped in an alley?...Hilarious. Little girl kidnapped, killed and fed to dogs? Insignificant. Will mean nothing the day nukes fly.

I imagine that the Comedian attended the Crimebusters meeting just so he could say this. I'm sure he wanted to call bullshit with everyone in attendance and make his point known.

RedAngel wrote:
Adrian lacks respect for human life and the individual. He kills millions to stop nuclear war.... he thinks nothing of killing his servants, the scientists, writers, artists that worked tirelessly for his cause.

People are statistics to him. They matter in number. No, one more body that lines the foundations of his utopia dosent matter, nor will three more, a hundred more, a thousand more.

His philanthropic efforts work on a scale of sheer numbers. 60 million dollars raised, 40 tons of grain distributed to the hungry...etc..etc..etc.

It's hard to envision him tracking down a kidnapped child, a murder, punishing an arsonist, or wasting anytime on an individual.

And that's exactly what he did, until the Crimebusters meeting. He didn't really get his idea of the big picture until the Comedian opened his eyes to it.

RedAngel wrote:
Laurie, I'm not sure what she does, but she seems to lack the decisiveness to punish wrong doing, and the analytical ability to investigate. She seems to lack the convictions that fuel vigilantism and the desire to bring people to justice.

Attending the Crimebusters meeting wasn't her call, it was her mothers'. This was the event that SSI had spent years training her daughter for, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:44 am 
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Those are good points.

But Im not asking why they attended the crime busters meeting.....

Im asking why they are vigilantes in the first place, and in practice what they actually do.




For example,... Given this situation: A young woman is beaten raped and killed by a serial killer/rapist.

Rorschach will visit the crime scene, investigate, gather clues, question witnesses, comb the under world, find the perpetrator and (probably) kill him.

Dan (Pre-retirement) will probably help Rorschach. Although he would discourage Rorschach from killing the guy. It's doubtful he can follow through on his own.

Laurie Laurie lacks the investigative ability to follow up on cases. She would be unable to make use of the underworld and actually finding the perpetrator is probably beyond her ability.

Jon Already knows the outcome. He can see the dead killer, the grieving parents of the woman, the victim as a young girl, the moment of her death.
But it means nothing to him... He's back at his lab looking for sub-atomic particles.

Adrian is troubled by this brutal act. Perhaps better legislation will discourage the incidence of violent crime. Raising about 20 million dollars could fund a better infrastructure for public safety....etc.....etc....

The Comedian is at home watching TV. In the morning he will read about it in the news and have a good laugh.



I cant see how anyone of these people, (with the exception of Rorschach and Dan) functions as an effective vigilante.... or really a vigilante at all.


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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:26 am 
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Rorschach will visit the crime scene, investigate, gather clues, question witnesses, comb the under world, find the perpetrator and (probably) kill him.


Yep, but we all know why Ror is a vigilante (as you say in the first post) so we don't need to go into it.

Quote:
Dan (Pre-retirement) will probably help Rorschach. Although he would discourage Rorschach from killing the guy. It's doubtful he can follow through on his own.


Dan grew up reading about the masked heroes in the papers. They captured his imagination, especially Nite Owl, who seems the most morally upright of the Minutemen.
Dan, like lots of kids, liked the idea of being a hero and has a genuine altruistic desire to save the world, or at least his city. Hollis was nice to him and guided him, Dan had the means to go through with it so he did.

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Laurie Laurie lacks the investigative ability to follow up on cases. She would be unable to make use of the underworld and actually finding the perpetrator is probably beyond her ability.


Not a mystery. If her mum wasn't a masked hero then she wouldn't have been either. She was pushed into it at an early age. At 17 she met, and fell in love with, Dr Manhattan which would have cemented her interest. She did want to please her mum and I also suspect she rather enjoyed it but she would never admit to that.
Quote:
Jon Already knows the outcome. He can see the dead killer, the grieving parents of the woman, the victim as a young girl, the moment of her death. But it means nothing to him... He's back at his lab looking for sub-atomic particles.


Jon was beholden to the government. It was a rather desirable situation for him. He got his state of the art lab and got to boff around to his hearts content while putting in the occasional appearance in the press or at the White House to remind both the Russians and Americans here was still there. He had to go to war or quell a riot? Small price to pay for his secure position. It was give and take. He was a vigilante because it paid the bills.

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Adrian is troubled by this brutal act. Perhaps better legislation will discourage the incidence of violent crime. Raising about 20 million dollars could fund a better infrastructure for public safety....etc.....etc....


Is he troubled or does he just find such base behaviour distasteful?
He would care nothing for the girl but he does want the world he lives in to be ordered and pleasant. He wants to shape the world into something he would find pleasing, much like his hero Alexander the Great, or Napoleon I who arrived in Paris to find a post-revolutionary mess and set about returning order because he couldn't abide a mess.
Veidt wants to live in a crime free would because it's, well, less course than the one he lives in now. He's seen the scum of the Earth and he doesn't want it as part of his world.

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The Comedian is at home watching TV. In the morning he will read about it in the news and have a good laugh.


I don't think so. We never see him laughing at the victims of violent crime.
What we do see is him tearing strips of Dr Manhattan for not caring enough, or at all.
We see him in tears over the idea of mass-murder. We also see him being a callous jerk but wherever do people get the idea he doesn't care?

Why would someone who doesn't care beat on someone for not caring?
The Comedian sees the big picture. He's poor on details, one-on-one. He has almost no impulse control. He struggles with inter-personal relationships (to say the least) but I don't think he would find the murder of a young girl funny.
He may even think of Laurie at this point. What if it had been her?

We don't know about how the Comedian came to the masked life. He was already doing it at 15 and was already aggressive and violent. I don't know what set him off. He may have enjoyed the chance to beat people up with no bad consequences,
either acting from some personal abuse or because he just liked it.

He may have been drawn to the excitement. He may have needed an outlet for his violent tendencies and this was an acceptable one.
The fact he seemed to be on his own at 15 suggests his home life was less that supportive too. Goodness knows what he picked up there.

Once upon a time every cynic was an idealist. It's just possible, at that early age, he really felt he could save the world. Later on he learns different and he takes it hard. His anger and frustration spills out and he makes sure the others masks know too.
He sinks into despair.
This doesn't sound like a man who doesn't give a crap to me.

I don't know why he started but I think he keeps going because he likes being the hero. He likes being on the front line. He gets a kick out of having permission to fight, to take charge. He keeps clippings of his successes so he can relive them.
He likes the hero life which is a good motivator. He thrives on the excitement and, maybe early on, the idea he could make a difference.

Then, sometimes, he hates it because through it he learns more than he wants to know, more than he can stand to know.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:42 am 
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Good topic! I think the key is that there are many different ways of fighting crime, and each vigilante has their own modus operandi.

RedAngel wrote:
Rorschach will visit the crime scene, investigate, gather clues, question witnesses, comb the under world, find the perpetrator and (probably) kill him.


This would depend on the young woman: Rorschach has been known to excuse rape as a "moral lapse". Prostitutes, lesbians, or any other women he defined as "indecent" he would probably class as getting what came to them, and leave it be. After all, he believes that the clientele of Harry's Bar are all into "heroin and child pornography" - thus giving him the moral right to torture them for information, and feel no remorse when they can't give any. But you're right - his modus operandi is detective work, and if he believes the young woman in question to be "innocent", then this is exactly the kind of crime that would exercise him.

Quote:
Dan (Pre-retirement) will probably help Rorschach. Although he would discourage Rorschach from killing the guy. It's doubtful he can follow through on his own.


Dan's modus operandi is also investigative - he demonstrates this in Chapters VIII and X, and has far more success in uncovering Veidt's conspiracy than Rorschach had. He at least identifies it as a conspiracy against Jon, not a conspiracy to kill masks. He uses his kit at the Owl's Nest to gather and analyse data - a forensic scientist to Rorschach's gumshoe. That's one of the reasons that they make such a complementary team - Dan has the analytical and technological capabilities that Rorschach lacks. We don't know exactly what kit he has at home - the kit we see is all action oriented, apart from his huge computer database - but I imagine he'd be taking samples for analysis. Compare fingerprints and blood samples with the police database: the underworld isn't the only place to get information. Plus, in the case of a random, brutal attack (as opposed to an organised criminal conspiracy), would the underworld be such a great place to go for information?

Now, whether Dan would go to investigate this kind of crime is another question. His work with Rorschach seems to have focussed mostly on taking down organised crime. And putting away the Twilight Lady. Rorschach seemed to lose interest in organised crime after the Blair Roche case.

I think Minutemarch has Dan's motivation down pat. He had the means to live out his fantasy, so he did. How much of it is genuine altruism and how much personal wish-fulfilment is an open question.

Quote:
Laurie Laurie lacks the investigative ability to follow up on cases. She would be unable to make use of the underworld and actually finding the perpetrator is probably beyond her ability.


Laurie's modus operandi is patrolling - she goes looking for trouble. She's closer to a beat bobby than any of the other characters: which seems to be the method used by most of the Minutemen. Given that she learned everything she knew about vigilantism from her mother, that's not too surprising. If she found a rape or killing in progress, she'd lay into the attacker - we've already seen that she's perfectly capable of handling herself amongst an armed mob in Washington, and a gang of toughs in New York. She also has strong feelings on the subject of rape, so this might be one area where she was more motivated than most to step in. But her methods emphasise stopping trouble when it's in progress - arriving after the event, there's not much she could do except call the Police. She may not have wanted to become a Mask, but she dedicated herself single-mindedly to pursuing it.

Quote:
Jon Already knows the outcome. He can see the dead killer, the grieving parents of the woman, the victim as a young girl, the moment of her death.


Jon's powers are best suited to blowing people up, not investigation, and that's how the government use him. He teleports into a trouble spot, blows up the bad guys, and teleports back out again. If the government ordered him to investigate, he probably would - after all, he fights crime at their behest. But he can only see his own past and future, and he never acts on what he knows. So, Jon makes an effective Firearms Unit - could to call in for dangerous emergencies, but not much help where sleuthing is needed.

As to his motivations, he's extremely passive - everyone else makes his moves for him. He's achieved godhood and doesn't know what to do with it, so he just does what he's told. He wouldn't care that a crime had been committed.

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Adrian is troubled by this brutal act. Perhaps better legislation will discourage the incidence of violent crime.


I think this depends on whether we're talking pre- or post- crimebusters Adrian. Pre, we know he did some sleuthing. He's intelligent, analytical, has a lot of resources available to him - so he'd probably adopt an approach similar to that mentioned for Dan above. Post, might he go through with it as a publicity exercise? Free positive publicity for him, I guess. He must have continued some form of vigilante activity before his retirement, to keep up his public profile.

Quote:
The Comedian is at home watching TV. In the morning he will read about it in the news and have a good laugh.


Depends when you encounter the Comedian. Pre 1940, he worked on the Waterfronts. He's all about being tough, rather than being analytical, so I imagine he used a similar patrolling approach to Laurie: break up trouble when you find it. Post 1940, he begins to work more and more for the government, as a soldier and a hitman. He might assassinate the odd criminal, but given that he becomes more and more interested in the political situation, I suspect he stopped dealing with straightforward crimes. Whether he would have the skills to track an unknown perpetrator down (as opposed to tracking and killing a known target), I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what he would do in the situation you describe. If he saw the crime in progress, he might just shoot the attacker: quickest and simplest way of getting rid of them, and he could probably do it without being caught. The government wouldn't arrest one of their best agents for shooting a rapist, at least as long as he avoided a scandal. But if he arrived after the event, would he have the motivation to follow it up? He might see it as insignificant next to the larger political problems he's taken to dealing with.

So, I think every one of the Masks makes an effective vigilante, but they each deal with different forms of crime.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:01 pm 
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As to his motivations, he's extremely passive - everyone else makes his moves for him. He's achieved godhood and doesn't know what to do with it, so he just does what he's told. He wouldn't care that a crime had been committed.
This is the best description of Jon thus far.

Laurie says it in the movie: "Didn't want to disappoint Mother, she wanted her little girl to be just like her and fight bad guys." I've always wondered if Laurie would have become a vigilante on her own had Sally just sat back and let Laurie decide if she wanted that sort of life.
Of course, is Sally capable of doing that? Whole new discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Fahnette wrote:

Laurie says it in the movie: "Didn't want to disappoint Mother, she wanted her little girl to be just like her and fight bad guys." I've always wondered if Laurie would have become a vigilante on her own had Sally just sat back and let Laurie decide if she wanted that sort of life.


I could be way off the mark here (still can't afford a copy of the GN, so there's a lot I haven't been able to read yet), but Laurie strikes me as the type who would also complain if Sally hadn't had her trained as a vigilante. You know, the "I-hated-piano-lessons-and-refuse-to-play-now-because-you-forced-me///why-didn't-you-make-me-keep-playing-piano-when-I-was-younger" thing...


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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Janx wrote:
Fahnette wrote:
Laurie says it in the movie: "Didn't want to disappoint Mother, she wanted her little girl to be just like her and fight bad guys." I've always wondered if Laurie would have become a vigilante on her own had Sally just sat back and let Laurie decide if she wanted that sort of life.

I could be way off the mark here (still can't afford a copy of the GN, so there's a lot I haven't been able to read yet), but Laurie strikes me as the type who would also complain if Sally hadn't had her trained as a vigilante. You know, the "I-hated-piano-lessons-and-refuse-to-play-now-because-you-forced-me///why-didn't-you-make-me-keep-playing-piano-when-I-was-younger" thing...
Oooh. That's really good.

Janx=reference to That Old Janx Spirit?

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Rorschach was there because... well I needn't really explain, should I? Blame Kitty Genovese and Dan.

Dan was there because at that time (1960 something), Rorschach and he were already fighting crime together.

Jon was there because of Nixon. The press called him a crime-fighter, so Nixon told him to do so. Janey was just there as an accompaniment. She was his girlfriend at the time.

Adrian was there because he was probably asked by Captain Metropolis to join, and by that time he was already in the papers.

Laurie was there because it was what she was trained for, and her mother didn't want her to miss out on the first opportunity.

Blake was there because he knew Metropolis, and wanted to clearly get his point across.

Metropolis was the head of the presentation, so no questions there.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:57 am 
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RedAngel wrote:
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Dan (Pre-retirement) will probably help Rorschach. Although he would discourage Rorschach from killing the guy. It's doubtful he can follow through on his own.


Maybe it's Dan's pairing with the incredibly brutal rorschach that brings out the contrast, but i don't know where this idea that 'dan wimped out from getting his hands dirty' came from. Sure, in the riots he clearly doesn't want any of the innocent protesters to get hurt, but when he comes across crims he has no problem beating them down. i remember in the owl ship, when he said:

"A little old fashioned brutality? Hell, it'll be like coming home."

He's a nice guy, but i don't see any evidence for a rediculous batman-esque "no kill" rule.


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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:24 pm 
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Fahnette wrote:
Oooh. That's really good.

Thank you! Let's just say, Laurie reminds me of my own daughter in some respects... ;)
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Janx=reference to That Old Janx Spirit?

*grin* Yup! Very fond of HHGTTG and David Dixon... :)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:42 am 
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Why did they choose to become vigilantes….. and what would they’re crime fighting style be? Great thread!

Motivation- The comedian went into crime fighting as a socially acceptable way to act on his violent and aggressive impulses. The joke is the fact that we label it ok to murder, beat up, set on fire, blow up what ever we like as long as we can find a socially acceptable excuse, label it, dress it up- its crime fighting, its war, its justice. Its not that he doesn’t care what happens to people or that he wouldn’t feel bad that a child was murdered, he would care but he would also see the irony in it being ok for him to beat up or kill the person responsible for beating up or killing someone else.

So as to his crime fighting style- he would care about the victim on some level, but really seek out and punish who ever was responsible because it would be fun and an acceptable to way to beat the crap out of someone.

Motivations- Laurie has a clear set of morals and does care about helping people, she may have followed another line of work if it hadn’t been for her mom, Jon and the adrenaline of it all but that doesn’t mean she did not care about the criminals or the justice she was fighting for. She talks about her love of animals with Dan, probably would have been a vet so I think she does care about helping the innocent. I also don’t think it was lost on Laurie the importance of having a strong women fighting for women in society either. (Although I do concede the irony of her being entirely reliant on men her entire life, but duality is what Watchmen is all about.)

As for her style- I think the idea that she is more of a police-on-the-beat is perfect. She looks for trouble and puts out the fire once its in progress, much like it was mentioned above is Jon’s method as well.

Motivation- Dan had a very clear sense of right and wrong and really needed to feel a part of something important, powerful and greater than himself. I don’t think that Dan had great self esteem so he supplement it by doing something that was considered important, respected and something that gave him some power. Dan has romantic ideas about everything, including justice and what one person can do in the face of injustice.

His style- I think he could investigate along the lines of old private eyes like the Shadow, just like his hero Hollis, but he would also be able to take action jump into a problem that was already in process.

Motivation- I do think that Jon cared about right and wrong, he can recognize that the Comedian’s actions in Vietnam are wrong even if he is emotionally distant from it. I don’t think Jon is devoid of emotion but distracted by layers of simultaneous awareness that pull him in so many ways at once he is only mildly present in any one moment, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t care or would not want to have a positive impact on those he cares about. Jon has also spent his life doing what he was told and trying to please others, so when the government and Janey told him to he went along with it.

His style- I would also agree that he is more the type to solve something that is already in process and not to prevent or investigate after.

Motivations- Adrian was a crime fighter with a grandiose view of justice and his role in it until the Comedian put it in his head that their actions would be pointless in the face of global problems like nuclear holocaust. He kept with it after this idea sparked as a way to gain publicity to help in his empire building and to make him above suspicion.

His style- investigate, prevent, or take down the bad guy in the moment, but it would have to be with as much publicity as possible.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Only after the kidnap case, in 1975, Rorschach becomes a killer. Don't forget it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:34 am 
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Longmoan wrote:
"A little old fashioned brutality? Hell, it'll be like coming home."

He's a nice guy, but i don't see any evidence for a rediculous batman-esque "no kill" rule.


He's certainly quite happy to threaten and throttle a knot-top when he learns of Hollis Mason's death, even threatening to "take out this entire rat-hole neighbourhood". Admittedly, he's shocked and angry at the news (perhaps angry at himself for missing it?), but it still takes Rorschach to keep him from killing an apparently innocent person (at least, I can't see any sign of that particular Knot-Top among the gang that attacks Hollis Mason). Dan has a flame thrower and air-to-air missiles on his ship: not exactly non-lethal force. There again, Rorschach himself points out that he used to let criminals live - so it would seem strange if Dan were actively killing people.

Gourmet wrote:
Only after the kidnap case, in 1975, Rorschach becomes a killer. Don't forget it.


Good point - what Rorschach would do would depend on when this encounter took place. Of course, if he was working with Dan, it would be pre-Blaire Roche anyway - though his methods were brutal even back then. He injured at least fourteen innocent people on his way to find Blaire Roche.

TwilightLadyII wrote:
I don’t think that Dan had great self esteem so he supplement it by doing something that was considered important, respected and something that gave him some power.


Hmmm... good point. I'd never actually considered the self-esteem issue as a motivator with Dan.

TwilightLadyII wrote:
(Although I do concede the irony of her being entirely reliant on men her entire life, but duality is what Watchmen is all about.)


Isn't that partly why she resents her career? It's the irony that Sally made Laurie into a superhero with the best of intentions (so that she would be able to look after herself), but has left her without the skills or aptitudes she needs to do anything else: leaving her dependent on the men in her life to provide for her. There isn't much money in being a superhero, it would seem! At least if she'd been a vet, she might have been able to earn a living of her own.

TwilightLadyII wrote:
Jon has also spent his life doing what he was told and trying to please others, so when the government and Janey told him to he went along with it.


I find it strange that Janey is at the Crimebusters meeting at all: she isn't going to become a member, is she? Does Jon need someone to keep an eye on him? Perhaps the government don't trust him enough to take a proper interest (which, to be fair, he doesn't). She makes comments about him "knocking them dead" when his existence is first announced: almost like she's his manager, or agent or something.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:57 pm 
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blue_meanie wrote:
Quote:
Isn't that partly why she resents her career? It's the irony that Sally made Laurie into a superhero with the best of intentions (so that she would be able to look after herself), but has left her without the skills or aptitudes she needs to do anything else: leaving her dependent on the men in her life to provide for her. There isn't much money in being a superhero, it would seem! At least if she'd been a vet, she might have been able to earn a living of her own.


Great point! I think that fits along with the theme of having the best intentions going awry.

blue_meanie wrote:
Quote:
I find it strange that Janey is at the Crimebusters meeting at all: she isn't going to become a member, is she? Does Jon need someone to keep an eye on him? Perhaps the government don't trust him enough to take a proper interest (which, to be fair, he doesn't). She makes comments about him "knocking them dead" when his existence is first announced: almost like she's his manager, or agent or something.


I think Janey recognized very early Jon’s need to please others and his tendency to try to earn love by doing what others wanted and I think that after the accident she saw a way to capitalize on this on a whole new level. I get the impression anywhere Jon went Janey would go as well, I think she was naturally a little controlling and insecure in her relationship with Jon, even before the accident and even more so after. I doubt she would want Jon to do something she wasn’t a part of or couldn’t keep tabs on. I’m sure the government loved this but I doubt they ever had to tell her to do it, I think she would have regardless. I think the government had enough psyche profiles on Jon to know that he would most likely go to the meeting and join the Crimebusters just because they “asked”, but knowing that Janey would tell him to do the same thing was a nice bonus for them.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:43 pm 
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TwilightLadyII wrote:
I think Janey recognized very early Jon’s need to please others and his tendency to try to earn love by doing what others wanted and I think that after the accident she saw a way to capitalize on this on a whole new level. I get the impression anywhere Jon went Janey would go as well, I think she was naturally a little controlling and insecure in her relationship with Jon, even before the accident and even more so after. I doubt she would want Jon to do something she wasn’t a part of or couldn’t keep tabs on. I’m sure the government loved this but I doubt they ever had to tell her to do it, I think she would have regardless. I think the government had enough psyche profiles on Jon to know that he would most likely go to the meeting and join the Crimebusters just because they “asked”, but knowing that Janey would tell him to do the same thing was a nice bonus for them.

Hurm. Kind of makes you wonder what level of his rapidly waning humanity Jon was functioning at during his relationship with Janey. He made a (preordained but still conscious) decision to cheat with Laurie after the Crimebusters debacle, and this Janey-as-controller in the relationship theory goes a LONG way towards humanizing Jon's choice.
This could be a whole new thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The other masks.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:51 am 
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blue_meanie wrote:
Good topic! I think the key is that there are many different ways of fighting crime, and each vigilante has their own modus operandi.

RedAngel wrote:
Rorschach will visit the crime scene, investigate, gather clues, question witnesses, comb the under world, find the perpetrator and (probably) kill him.


This would depend on the young woman: Rorschach has been known to excuse rape as a "moral lapse". Prostitutes, lesbians, or any other women he defined as "indecent" he would probably class as getting what came to them, and leave it be. After all, he believes that the clientele of Harry's Bar are all into "heroin and child pornography" - thus giving him the moral right to torture them for information, and feel no remorse when they can't give any. But you're right - his modus operandi is detective work, and if he believes the young woman in question to be "innocent", then this is exactly the kind of crime that would exercise him.

Quote:
Dan (Pre-retirement) will probably help Rorschach. Although he would discourage Rorschach from killing the guy. It's doubtful he can follow through on his own.


Dan's modus operandi is also investigative - he demonstrates this in Chapters VIII and X, and has far more success in uncovering Veidt's conspiracy than Rorschach had. He at least identifies it as a conspiracy against Jon, not a conspiracy to kill masks. He uses his kit at the Owl's Nest to gather and analyse data - a forensic scientist to Rorschach's gumshoe. That's one of the reasons that they make such a complementary team - Dan has the analytical and technological capabilities that Rorschach lacks. We don't know exactly what kit he has at home - the kit we see is all action oriented, apart from his huge computer database - but I imagine he'd be taking samples for analysis. Compare fingerprints and blood samples with the police database: the underworld isn't the only place to get information. Plus, in the case of a random, brutal attack (as opposed to an organised criminal conspiracy), would the underworld be such a great place to go for information?

Now, whether Dan would go to investigate this kind of crime is another question. His work with Rorschach seems to have focussed mostly on taking down organised crime. And putting away the Twilight Lady. Rorschach seemed to lose interest in organised crime after the Blair Roche case.

I think Minutemarch has Dan's motivation down pat. He had the means to live out his fantasy, so he did. How much of it is genuine altruism and how much personal wish-fulfilment is an open question.

Quote:
Laurie Laurie lacks the investigative ability to follow up on cases. She would be unable to make use of the underworld and actually finding the perpetrator is probably beyond her ability.


Laurie's modus operandi is patrolling - she goes looking for trouble. She's closer to a beat bobby than any of the other characters: which seems to be the method used by most of the Minutemen. Given that she learned everything she knew about vigilantism from her mother, that's not too surprising. If she found a rape or killing in progress, she'd lay into the attacker - we've already seen that she's perfectly capable of handling herself amongst an armed mob in Washington, and a gang of toughs in New York. She also has strong feelings on the subject of rape, so this might be one area where she was more motivated than most to step in. But her methods emphasise stopping trouble when it's in progress - arriving after the event, there's not much she could do except call the Police. She may not have wanted to become a Mask, but she dedicated herself single-mindedly to pursuing it.

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Jon Already knows the outcome. He can see the dead killer, the grieving parents of the woman, the victim as a young girl, the moment of her death.


Jon's powers are best suited to blowing people up, not investigation, and that's how the government use him. He teleports into a trouble spot, blows up the bad guys, and teleports back out again. If the government ordered him to investigate, he probably would - after all, he fights crime at their behest. But he can only see his own past and future, and he never acts on what he knows. So, Jon makes an effective Firearms Unit - could to call in for dangerous emergencies, but not much help where sleuthing is needed.

As to his motivations, he's extremely passive - everyone else makes his moves for him. He's achieved godhood and doesn't know what to do with it, so he just does what he's told. He wouldn't care that a crime had been committed.

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Adrian is troubled by this brutal act. Perhaps better legislation will discourage the incidence of violent crime.


I think this depends on whether we're talking pre- or post- crimebusters Adrian. Pre, we know he did some sleuthing. He's intelligent, analytical, has a lot of resources available to him - so he'd probably adopt an approach similar to that mentioned for Dan above. Post, might he go through with it as a publicity exercise? Free positive publicity for him, I guess. He must have continued some form of vigilante activity before his retirement, to keep up his public profile.

Quote:
The Comedian is at home watching TV. In the morning he will read about it in the news and have a good laugh.


Depends when you encounter the Comedian. Pre 1940, he worked on the Waterfronts. He's all about being tough, rather than being analytical, so I imagine he used a similar patrolling approach to Laurie: break up trouble when you find it. Post 1940, he begins to work more and more for the government, as a soldier and a hitman. He might assassinate the odd criminal, but given that he becomes more and more interested in the political situation, I suspect he stopped dealing with straightforward crimes. Whether he would have the skills to track an unknown perpetrator down (as opposed to tracking and killing a known target), I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what he would do in the situation you describe. If he saw the crime in progress, he might just shoot the attacker: quickest and simplest way of getting rid of them, and he could probably do it without being caught. The government wouldn't arrest one of their best agents for shooting a rapist, at least as long as he avoided a scandal. But if he arrived after the event, would he have the motivation to follow it up? He might see it as insignificant next to the larger political problems he's taken to dealing with.

So, I think every one of the Masks makes an effective vigilante, but they each deal with different forms of crime.



In my opinion, the topic ended here. Blue_meanie got just right i think. This topic seems to have become motives and so on, when as far as im aware, it was originally about their crime solving methods, as Blue_meanie has answered.


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