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 Post subject: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:59 am 
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I was thinking about this and I decided to run it by the resident experts/debaters here at WatchmenComicMovie Forum.

In the end of Watchmen, we see Seymour reaching for Rorschach's journal. This leads to you being able to make your own ending: Peace is unraveled by Rorschach or Seymour skips the journal are the two most recognized.

However, I got to thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that ether way, peace is sustained. Why? Because no one believes/likes masked vigilantes, Rorschach in particular. Also, the Watchmen world does not seem to pay much attention to the New Frontiersman (certainly not as much as they do the Nova Express, as I can gather), so why would publishing Rorschach's journal ever really do anything except form some conspiracy theorists who know the truth?

Just another question to pose, hypothetically: would the news being accepted lead to not only Ozymandias's ostracism, or also to nuclear holocaust, or would it e a similar Cold War to ours?

Just some stuff to ponder and debate (or tell me that I looked over a very obvious detail :lol:).


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:35 am 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:59 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
Edrid wrote:
However, I got to thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that ether way, peace is sustained.

Or, the third "most recognized" scenario comes into play: irrespective of whether or not the journal is uncovered and/or believed, human nature being what it is is inherently and inexorably self-destructive and incapable of sustaining peace as envisaged by Veidt.
It's almost as if, despite his 'best' efforts (eternally debatable in itself)... Nothing ever ends.

QFT. Very well said.

I'd only like to add that there are many "checks and balances" that ensure the ending's ambiguity. This is one of them. If we see Seymour throwing away the journal, it sends the message that the murder of millions was necessary. If we see him reading or publishing the journal, it gives the impression that Ozymandias' peace isn't worth it. Thus, the journal's fate is left unsaid.

As you say, Edrid, it is far from certain that anyone would take Rorschach's journal seriously or that any of it could be proven without its author. Still, there's a possibility that the truth will come out, and the reader is perfectly able to go with that possibility if (s)he so chooses. That's all the ending is, really: Possibilities. It's a wide variety of possible roads to an uncertain destination.

You know, like life.

However, given the nature of Watchmen's world and the nature of humanity as a whole, I think that the most probable outcome would be that Ozymandias' peace would continue until someone found a reason to disrupt it. Adrian may be the smartest man alive, but he can't live forever, after all. Eventually, some economic crisis or religious debate or international incident would give way to more conflict and Adrian wouldn't be able to silence it.

To paraphrase the movie's Dr. Manhattan, human nature simply cannot be changed.

I hope that clears a few things up, Edrid. Welcome aboard.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:04 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
Or, the third "most recognized" scenario comes into play: irrespective of whether or not the journal is uncovered and/or believed, human nature being what it is is inherently and inexorably self-destructive and incapable of sustaining peace as envisaged by Veidt.


I'd go with this. It always makes me think of 9/11 - not a perfect analogy, but it does give us a feel for what happens when a huge and unexpected tragedy strikes. Everyone was busy standing "shoulder to shoulder" with each other. At the time it felt like the end of the world - like things couldn't carry on as before. But here we are, and people are still going to war against each other. And there are plenty of conspiracy theories about 9/11.

I guess Veidt, at the very least, defused the immediate crisis - even if it was one of his own making, it was going to happen to sooner or later; Jon wouldn't have stuck around forever. If Veidt were exposed, might he become public enemy number one? Of course, in the book, he only attacked New York, so the rest of the world wouldn't have much cause to fear him.

I don't think Rorschach would have made much difference: his journal is full of whacky ramblings. Seymour read the first page, and it got thrown on the crank file. There's no guarantee that, in a hurry to get materials, Seymour would read far enough into the journal to get to the bits about Veidt. Even if he'd made it back to society, I'm not sure what he could have done to get people to listen. Multiple murderer and escaped convict begins raising questions about the World's Smartest Man? I doubt many would listen.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Nothing will ever end war. I think that's the best way to put it. Look at the bombs at the end of WWII, something similar to Veidt's plan that should have kept the world in check, but no everyone decided they had to have their own bombs and that put a new level on warfare in general. I think the truest quote about war is an H.G. Wells quote "Either we end war, or it will end us"

No journal or Squid (or S.Q.U.i.D. (ha)) will ever change that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:30 pm 
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OK. Thanks for the clearing up. Another note on the ending: I don't know if any of you watch him, but a fellow on YouTube by the name of DCompose said that a Watchmen 2 with Seymour as Rorschach's son would be interesting.

The general consensus here is that Rorschach would not be involved with a woman in such a way as would produce a child, right?


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:10 pm 
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Quote:
The general consensus here is that Rorschach would not be involved with a woman in such a way as would produce a child, right?


Rorschach considered completely suppressing that side of himself to be something of an accomplishment so, no I don’t think that would be likely. He’s strongly A-sexual by choice, and we all know how strong his will is.
Rorschach would never and could never compromise, its what he defined himself with, so I doubt that even if the perfect girl came around that he would even give in.
Interesting thought though....


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:15 pm 
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TwilightLadyII wrote:
Quote:
The general consensus here is that Rorschach would not be involved with a woman in such a way as would produce a child, right?


Rorschach considered completely suppressing that side of himself to be something of an accomplishment so, no I don’t think that would be likely. He’s strongly A-sexual by choice, and we all know how strong his will is.
Rorschach would never and could never compromise, its what he defined himself with, so I doubt that even if the perfect girl came around that he would even give in.
Interesting thought though....


agreed, up until the interesting thought, because like you said... if he had sex he would compromise everthing that makes him the way he is, so it would completly change Rorschach's character... I don't think for the better (not trying to be rude if it sounds that way)

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
agreed, up until the interesting thought, because like you said... if he had sex he would compromise everthing that makes him the way he is, so it would completly change Rorschach's character... I don't think for the better (not trying to be rude if it sounds that way)



Not rude at all. :)

I agree, I wouldn’t like what that would mean for Rorschach, as it would completely go against the essence of what he is and what he strove to be, and I do think its impossible-

But I think its an interesting idea to consider on a theoretical level, as to what Rorschach’s idea of parenting would be considering the parenting he received and his feelings toward victimized children. I wonder what Rorschach would be like if forced to interact with a child that was not a victim.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:04 am 
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TwilightLadyII wrote:
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
agreed, up until the interesting thought, because like you said... if he had sex he would compromise everthing that makes him the way he is, so it would completly change Rorschach's character... I don't think for the better (not trying to be rude if it sounds that way)



Not rude at all. :)

I agree, I wouldn’t like what that would mean for Rorschach, as it would completely go against the essence of what he is and what he strove to be, and I do think its impossible-

But I think its an interesting idea to consider on a theoretical level, as to what Rorschach’s idea of parenting would be considering the parenting he received and his feelings toward victimized children. I wonder what Rorschach would be like if forced to interact with a child that was not a victim.


I don't think he would know how to treat a child because he has no model to base his actions on (other than that of his mother, who was not a good parent)

I wonder, if in the event that he did get a woman pregnant, would he walk out like his Dad did?

Something tells me that he would persuade the woman to have an abortion, or send the child to an adoption agency.

(by the way, I don't have the text at hand and have been read it in a while, so don't flame me if his dad didn't walk out)


In terms of the ending itself, I like it, and I think that peace will never truly be possible because no one trusts each other anymore, and the government feels safer behind nuclear weapons, and besides, if one gives up their weapons, what proof do they have that the other side will.

Even if there was no more conventional war, I think there would still be Cold War, because of the fear that someone may be harboring the secrets of the squid. I think that people would end up blaming others for the coming of the squid.

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Last edited by tbone on Wed May 06, 2009 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:27 pm 
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Well you know, there's always that What If? situation coming to life, such as a P.R. spokesman buying a paper because it caught his eye, or whoever takes over for Bernie possibly supporting the Frontiersman? Everything is analyzed, nothing is ignored my friend. Not even in the Watchverse.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:29 pm 
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I wonder, if in the event that he did get a woman pregnant, would he walk out like his Dad did?

Something tells me that he would persuade the woman to have an abortion, or send the child to an adoption agency.




Maybe it's just me, but Rorschach's always seemed to me as someone who would be strictly pro-life. He's sympathetic towards children who suffer abuse, so that kind of leads me to beleive he would be sympathetic towards the fetus/baby; it just seems to me like it would be against his morals to hurt something something as innocent as a baby, since he seems to feel that way about children. Then again, some people don't consider it a baby until it's been delivered, so who knows. I think he'd probably go with the adoption.

This is my first post and I'm half asleep right now, so don't judge me too harshly.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Edrid wrote:
OK. Thanks for the clearing up. Another note on the ending: I don't know if any of you watch him, but a fellow on YouTube by the name of DCompose said that a Watchmen 2 with Seymour as Rorschach's son would be interesting.

The general consensus here is that Rorschach would not be involved with a woman in such a way as would produce a child, right?


Hurm. I'm just going to be charitable and assume this YouTube goof was making a joke or trying to rile folks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Edrid wrote:
I don't know if any of you watch him, but a fellow on YouTube by the name of DCompose said that a Watchmen 2 with Seymour as Rorschach's son would be interesting.

The general consensus here is that Rorschach would not be involved with a woman in such a way as would produce a child, right?


Tell DCompose to read the book more than once.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:47 pm 
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For those curious about this DCompose, or wanting to "tear him a new hole", in the words of Big Figure's grunt, here's a link.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:11 am 
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WHile on this topic, does anyone else simply not like the ending very much?

It's just about the only thing in the book that doesn't do it for me: The last page of any decent book carries a great deal of pathos, yet the 'fat guy spilling ketchup' just leaves me a bit cold, even if you like what Moore is trying to do by usurping the usual idea of an ending where everything gets tied up ("nothing ever ends")

Perhaps it is also that it is a bit frustrating that we never really get 'closure' on the everything, though it's really just not beautiful an cinematic like the last panels of V for Vendetta and The Killing Joke, Halo Jones going "out", or the wonderful "it was the love" line I seem to recall at the end of Top Ten. I tend to think of "nothing ever ends, Adrian", the lipstick-imprinted Minutemen photo or Laurie's suggestion of getting a gun as the 'real' ending. Plus I think perhaps for me I was never really that into the reiteration of the bloodstained smiley motif: It's one of the less subtle and least meaningful motifs in the book. Did anyone else feel the same?


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:51 pm 
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What if Rorschach donated sperm in order to pay the rent when he was in a financial low?
Quote:
WHile on this topic, does anyone else simply not like the ending very much?

I loved how it appeared as if the fate of the world rested in the hands of an irresponsible slob.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
What if Rorschach donated sperm in order to pay the rent when he was in a financial low?


Well, it would certainly give new meaning to the phrase "Wow, I didn't see that one coming"...




I'll get my hat...


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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Ade Bamforth wrote:
WHile on this topic, does anyone else simply not like the ending very much?

It's just about the only thing in the book that doesn't do it for me: The last page of any decent book carries a great deal of pathos, yet the 'fat guy spilling ketchup' just leaves me a bit cold, even if you like what Moore is trying to do by usurping the usual idea of an ending where everything gets tied up ("nothing ever ends")

Perhaps it is also that it is a bit frustrating that we never really get 'closure' on the everything, though it's really just not beautiful an cinematic like the last panels of V for Vendetta and The Killing Joke, Halo Jones going "out", or the wonderful "it was the love" line I seem to recall at the end of Top Ten. I tend to think of "nothing ever ends, Adrian", the lipstick-imprinted Minutemen photo or Laurie's suggestion of getting a gun as the 'real' ending. Plus I think perhaps for me I was never really that into the reiteration of the bloodstained smiley motif: It's one of the less subtle and least meaningful motifs in the book. Did anyone else feel the same?

Nope. (I speak for everybody)

Bernard wrote:
What if Rorschach donated sperm in order to pay the rent when he was in a financial low?

It seems out of character for Rorschach to be doing something sexual like that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ending
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:44 pm 
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It seems much more likely then conceiving Seymour via conventional methods.

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