WatchmenComicMovie.com Forum


Talk about the Watchmen comic book mini-series and film
It is currently Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:02 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:49 pm 
Offline
Vigilante
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:40 am
Posts: 88
[NOTE: I split this from one of the Rorschach threads, just because I think this topic deserves its own thread. --"Curiosity Inc."]

One thing in the book that I think they should've done is just removed that entire prison section. Let me explain before you complain! I have a few examples on why you didn't really need the prison scene and how it would've been a lot more better at the end when Walter takes his mask off to Dr. Manhattan.

1. People will argue by saying "oh the whole prison part made Dan feel more powerful since Laurie was with him." That's bullshit, the tenement fire made Dan feel more impowered when he was with Laurie.

2. As interesting as Dr. Malcom was, what was the point of him? He connects nowhere after that chapter except visiting Bernie at the newsstand for a whole panel. People will also argue by saying "it was to explain Rorschach's backstory!" If you wanted to explore
Rorschach's backstory, make a chapter for him! If you could make an entire chapter for Dr. Manhattan, I don't see why you couldn't do one for Rorschach.

3. What happens in the prison that connects anywhere in the rest of the book? Was Big Figure nessecery? Oh we saw Walter throw the hot fat on the prison mate to show how screwed up he was, don't even get me started on that point.

4. On chapter 12 when Walter takes his mask off to Dr. Manhattan, we should've been surprised on what Walter looks like. Before chapter 12, they should've showed us just 1 panel every now and then of how Walter became Rorschach, show back shots of his body or something so that we wouldn'tve seen his face. Then finally when we see Walter's face, it shows us a couple'a backstory panels, some talking between Walter & Dr. Manhattan, some more backstory, and on and on, but not too much.

That was really just a point on why the whole Chapter 6 was unnessecery. People are probably gonna argue with me on saying how it was nessecery so just don't get mad at me, i'm just explaining on why I thought it was useless.

_________________
"They got writers, and scientists on this island with a giant squid! They didn't even invite me! They're having a bloody party! They have hookers! What the fuck Adrian, you bastard! Next time you visit me, you're getting a can of whoop ass!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:07 pm 
Offline
Tired of Earth.
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 8035
Location: Clackamas, OR
You missed an important point, SilkOwl: If Rorschach had managed to evade the cops, it would have added greatly to his physical prowess and skill.

As for Dr. Malcolm, we have entire threads here to explain his relevance. Suffice to say that Dr. Long is not only important as an expository device for Rorschach's backstory, but also for Rorschach's moral outlooks. He dared to gaze into the abyss and he was visibly changed for it. That's a powerful thing and I wouldn't want the book to have been without it.

There's also the deconstruction element: I'm not the greatest comic book geek out there, but I'm pretty sure that the concept of locking up superheroes was pretty foreign in the 1980s. A few funny book superheroes might have been threatened with jail time, but I think Rorschach was the first to actually be arrested. Moreover, superheroes break him out. Sure, we've all seen and heard of supervillains busting each other out of the slammer, but a jailbreak for superheroes? How often has that been done?

I completely understand where you're coming from, SilkOwl, and trust me when I say that greater fans than you have said the same thing. Still, I disagree.

_________________
This is truly a madhouse. And I'm the lunatic running it. I've spent three years wondering if I should be proud or ashamed.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:14 am 
Offline
Tired of Earth.
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 8131
Location: 1060 W. Addison St.
i'm pretty sure chapter six basically was the "rorschach's background" chapter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:23 am 
Offline
Vigilante
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:40 am
Posts: 88
WJK wrote:
i'm pretty sure chapter six basically was the "rorschach's background" chapter.


But with chapter 4 it was ALL Dr. Manhattan. If we had a chapter for Rorschach it would be ALL Rorshach, no one else.

_________________
"They got writers, and scientists on this island with a giant squid! They didn't even invite me! They're having a bloody party! They have hookers! What the fuck Adrian, you bastard! Next time you visit me, you're getting a can of whoop ass!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:22 pm 
Offline
Thermodynamic Miracle
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 2:08 pm
Posts: 272
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
SilkOwl wrote:
WJK wrote:
i'm pretty sure chapter six basically was the "rorschach's background" chapter.


But with chapter 4 it was ALL Dr. Manhattan. If we had a chapter for Rorschach it would be ALL Rorshach, no one else.


It mostly was as far as I can recall- except for little snippets that were important for foreshadowing. I loved seeing from his perspective, and the whole Bernards talking about "There's things going down that we don't even see" with Walter in the background digging through a trash can (Mail drop.) It wasn't as direct, but it seems fitting since Rorschach always kind of feels like he approaches things sideways or head-on with his fists.

Also I have to laugh, the RR logo reflected in the water from the neon sign throughout that chapter looks very similar to my dad's RR logo for his company. Enough for him to be amused when he saw it too.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:52 am 
Offline
Minuteman

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 10:43 am
Posts: 17
A very interesting point of view. I understand what you mean, why you see it in this way and think about it.
I still think the Chapter 6 is important and that it is much more than only the frame for Rorschachs background story.

SilkOwl wrote:

2. As interesting as Dr. Malcom was, what was the point of him? He connects nowhere after that chapter except visiting Bernie at the newsstand for a whole panel.

I think, Dr. Long is important. After contact with Walter something happens to him. Bevore his main wish was to have a good reputation. But than he think about live after Walter told him his story, he think about take care for ohters. And at the and he as on ohter important sceene. He try to help as Judy hurting her ex girlfriend. His wife said she will not return to him if he do so, but he still try to help. To help those who needs help is there for him more imoprtant than his owm benefit.
He is "rorschach-ised". After all that fingerbreaking (and murder) stuff, behind that paranoid surfece is that what Walter did: he took care for others, even when it means that his social network, the society will punish him for that.

Quote:
3. What happens in the prison that connects anywhere in the rest of the book? Was Big Figure nessecery? Oh we saw Walter throw the hot fat on the prison mate to show how screwed up he was, don't even get me started on that point.


We learn a lot of Walter while he is in prison. His real face is like a mask never (ok, nearly never) shows any emotion, not like his Rorschach mask, that do have diffrent expressions (The never-comromise-, the Happy-Harry- and the Surpise-face for example). Walter was realy in prison, a prison without walls and bars.

Quote:
4. On chapter 12 when Walter takes his mask off to Dr. Manhattan, we should've been surprised on what Walter looks like.


I can understand that argument, but I think it is much more better, when the focus in this scene ist not on the surprise how Walter looks like. Without the surpise cou can see the subcontent. Rorschachs way back to Walter. I don't know how can I explain this point better. I hope ist is claer what I mean. It is like an orchestra - it can play bomatically with the focus on one melody, one tune, without place for anything else, or it can play in the way that you can hear that all the diffrent instruments play diffrent melodies and that every melody suppurting the ohters to get the hole picture at the end.
None of the ways were better than the other, it is just a question what you prefer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:50 am 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
SilkOwl wrote:
1. People will argue by saying "oh the whole prison part made Dan feel more powerful since Laurie was with him." That's bullshit, the tenement fire made Dan feel more impowered when he was with Laurie.

You're right, the prison scenes aren't about Dan and Laurie. It's about Rorschach, or maybe about Dan and Rorschach, since it shows that Dan still feels an obligation to help Rorschach.

Quote:
2. As interesting as Dr. Malcom was, what was the point of him? He connects nowhere after that chapter except visiting Bernie at the newsstand for a whole panel. People will also argue by saying "it was to explain Rorschach's backstory!"

What was the point of Bernie and Bernard? Joey and Aline? Gallagher and Bourquin? Seymour and the New Frontiersman? These characters serve as foils for the prevalent worldviews and main themes of the plot. It isn't all about the characters, you know. Watchmen is primarily driven forward by a conflict of philosophies.


Quote:
If you wanted to explore
Rorschach's backstory, make a chapter for him! If you could make an entire chapter for Dr. Manhattan, I don't see why you couldn't do one for Rorschach.

Everything that needed to be said about Rorschach was said in the prison scenes and throughout the novel. Anything more would have been superfluous.


Quote:
3. What happens in the prison that connects anywhere in the rest of the book? Was Big Figure nessecery? Oh we saw Walter throw the hot fat on the prison mate to show how screwed up he was, don't even get me started on that point.

The hot fat on the prisoner - which wasn't him being crazy, but rather him defending himself - was necessary because when the prisoner died from the burns, it sparked the prison riot. Big Figure was there to show how screwed up Rorschach was - or, at least, how much of a grudge he holds and how unforgiving he is when it comes to punishment. It was also a nice little bit of dark humor - some of the best comedic wit of the graphic novel.

Quote:
4. On chapter 12 when Walter takes his mask off to Dr. Manhattan, we should've been surprised on what Walter looks like. Before chapter 12, they should've showed us just 1 panel every now and then of how Walter became Rorschach, show back shots of his body or something so that we wouldn'tve seen his face. Then finally when we see Walter's face, it shows us a couple'a backstory panels, some talking between Walter & Dr. Manhattan, some more backstory, and on and on, but not too much.

No. The death scene is perfect as is. Short and sweet. But I'll explain: Rorschach taking off his mask isn't about his face. It's set up by Rorschach's capture, which you clearly didn't understand if you thought that Rorschach taking off his mask at the end was about surprising you with how he looks. Instead, we've been shown in the Rorschach imprisonment scenes that he considers his mask a part of himself - he considers it his real "face." Taking it off implies - at least to a degree - that he is shedding the identity of Rorschach in that moment before his death, allowing himself to die as Walter Kovacs (although there are many interpretations of why he did it that are widely varying and all interesting).


Hope that helps.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:05 am 
Offline
Vigilante

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:47 am
Posts: 58
Quote:
4. On chapter 12 when Walter takes his mask off to Dr. Manhattan, we should've been surprised on what Walter looks like.



Yeah... this would have been inappropriate.

In that scene, the readers should respond to the fact that he is crying and that he removes the mask to die.

A response like "Hey! He's the sign guy ! I never suspected " is somewhat inappropriate for the scene.

There's a time and place for that, it was in chapter 5.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:33 pm 
Offline
Minuteman

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:13 pm
Posts: 20
I don't think I would prefer him revealing his face only in the final chapter. The emphasis would then be on how he looked, and his identity, while it is already possibly the most powerful frame in the book: It reveals the extent of the battle between Walter and Rorshach (I just love it when he has the mask half on/half off as Walter comes to the fore). It would rob that moment if it was also the big 'reveal'. Unlike V, having Rorshach identity revealed doesn't diminish the character, but makes him more than the sum of his parts as we see the difference the mask makes.

The psychoanalysis is perhaps one of the clunkier devices in the book, especially the Rorshach Tests themselves (I'm not sure if they were ever really credible as a diagnostic), though it gives us the opportunity to see just how dangerous Rorchach/Walter is as, unarmed, he calmly disposes of the opposition one by one. It helps us buy into the genre and believe it possible that a 'superhero' can get by without guns - in fact a firearm might even be a hindrance; he has the power of improvisation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Prison Scenes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:10 am 
Offline
Alien Squid Monster

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:31 pm
Posts: 119
As it hgas been stated, the chapter was about rorschach. IN the same way Jon was on mars, giving us his backstory. This was his turn.
'If you wanted to explore rorschachs backstory, make a chapter for him!' But, if i recall (I havent got the novel with me, im at college), this WAS the chapter for him!

Someone else mentioned it was also to make it clear dan still, sort of felt in debt to rorschach. He wanted to break him out. There's something there man!

And malcolm long was there to show, you dont have to be messed up to see how rorschach see's. If you open your eyes to his perspective, even those of high repute can be sucked in.


It only occured to me when reading this topic, that having rorschach revealed to us in his death scene would be powerful.
It'd be a huge SLAP IN THE FACE, we'd be like 'Oh... oh crap.. It's him!', and BOOM, we'd have him taken away from us.

But that wasnt the point of that section, was it? It would have been good, but then taken away from everything else.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.105s | 11 Queries | GZIP : Off ]