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 Post subject: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:52 pm 
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Human Bean Juice
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In Ch. X, there's the scene between a non-costumed Rorschach and his landlady. Anyone notice that Rorsch tears up at the sight of the little boy? The landlady also collapses, sobbing, in front of the window Rorsch and Nite Owl exist. Why? Was she expecting Rors to kill her?

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:02 pm 
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One of my favorite scenes in the entire book.

But did Rorschach really tear up? It looked like he was just showing sympathy for the boy, who reminded Rorschach of himself when he was younger. He felt sorry for the boy, so he left the landlady alone.

As for why she was expecting Rorschach to kill her:
a) Rorschach has a reputation for killing people who piss him off
b) The landlady probably didn't think Rorschach would find out about the remarks she made about him on TV.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:04 pm 
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I think she was more worried that she was going to be called a whore or prostitute in front of her children. As for Rorschach looking at the boy, he saw himself in the child and didn't want him to go through what he had to go through.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:09 pm 
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I've probably missed something in the book, but what happened to the landlady and her children after the squid arrived? Where they killed?

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:18 pm 
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Seemore wrote:
I've probably missed something in the book, but what happened to the landlady and her children after the squid arrived? Where they killed?

They were probably killed. Rorshach's apartment was fairly close to the Institute, wasn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:24 pm 
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Ronch Ronch Ronch wrote:
Seemore wrote:
I've probably missed something in the book, but what happened to the landlady and her children after the squid arrived? Where they killed?

They were probably killed. Rorshach's apartment was fairly close to the Institute, wasn't it?


If so, I am going to start bawling. Sure, she wasn't the best of people, but if Rors shows sympathy... :(

ETA: [quote= "The abyss"]But did Rorschach really tear up?[/quote]

Look very closely at his eyes and you can see tears welling up.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:36 pm 
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I think you may be right Ronch. It makes sense that those secondary characters that Rorschach (and the readers) knew were indeed destroyed, which is a huge punch in the gut to us and of course Rorschach, who unlike Adrian, actually had some connection to these 'background characters'. I think it's also part of the reason he couldn't accept Veidt's compromise as easily as the rest - He might not have been friends with these people but he could see their humanity, as he say's '..but there are so many deserving of retribution' and perhaps Mr's. Shairp and her children were derserving.

Lady Rorschach, I think I'll be joining you in the bawling session.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:43 pm 
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Seemore wrote:
I think you may be right Ronch. It makes sense that those secondary characters that Rorschach (and the readers) knew were indeed destroyed, which is a huge punch in the gut to us and of course Rorschach, who unlike Adrian, actually had some connection to these 'background characters'. I think it's also part of the reason he couldn't accept Veidt's compromise as easily as the rest - He might not have been friends with these people but he could see their humanity, as he say's '..but there are so many deserving of retribution' and perhaps Mr's. Shairp and her children were derserving.


Lady Rorschach, I think I'll be joining you in the bawling session.


I'll go get the kleenex *Sob*

Surely Rorschach would consider the loss of the children more painful...oh damn, there I go *Sobs*

Sorry, the idea that the kids don't make it bothers me...

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:16 pm 
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Well, in Chapter 5, page 11, Rorschach notes that Dolores Shairp, his landlady, reminds him of his mother. He even suspects she cheats on welfare, but he doesn't "punish" her for that. It's odd that all of the minor crimes he will "punish" people for, like gun licenses, prescription paperwork, defacing buildings with spray-paint, he never seems to "punish" those guilty of prostitution. He passes prostitutes on the street nearly everyday, even though he does bitch about it a lot, lol.

He doesn't "tear up" at the sight of the crying boy. His deadpan countenance does crack to reveal a cryptic emotion -- sadness? remorse? worriment? By this time, Shairp knows Walter is Rorschach...wanted for killing two people (officially); she knows he could kill her and her children. Also, it seems she never revealed her TRUE occupation, prostitution, to her children: "Please, they...they don't know." He shattered the children's more innocent view on their mother for calling her a "whore." Wouldn't you feel awful if you did that in front of seven kids?

He would have done more harm than good if he killed her.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:25 pm 
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Seeing that kid, he's involuntarily brought back into being Walter Kovacs for just a few seconds, and, while he'd never apologize for being Rorschach or for standing for the things he stands for, you get the sense that he doesn't want the kind of cycle that created him to be repeated. Among all the other good points above.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:26 pm 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
Seeing that kid, he's involuntarily brought back into being Walter Kovacs for just a few seconds, and, while he'd never apologize for being Rorschach or for standing for the things he stands for, you get the sense that he doesn't want the kind of cycle that created him to be repeated.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:30 pm 
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DogWithHeadSplitOpen wrote:
Well, in Chapter 5, page 11, Rorschach notes that Dolores Shairp, his landlady, reminds him of his mother. He even suspects she cheats on welfare, but he doesn't "punish" her for that. It's odd that all of the minor crimes he will "punish" people for, like gun licenses, prescription paperwork, defacing buildings with spray-paint, he never seems to "punish" those guilty of prostitution. He passes prostitutes on the street nearly everyday, even though he does bitch about it a lot, lol.

He doesn't "tear up" at the sight of the crying boy. His deadpan countenance does crack to reveal a cryptic emotion -- sadness? remorse? worriment? By this time, Shairp knows Walter is Rorschach...wanted for killing two people (officially); she knows he could kill her and her children. Also, it seems she never revealed her TRUE occupation, prostitution, to her children: "Please, they...they don't know." He shattered the children's more innocent view on their mother for calling her a "whore." Wouldn't you feel awful if you did that in front of seven kids?

He would have done more harm than good if he killed her.


His deadpan mask does slip, yes. The thing is, is it Walter coming into play for the split-second he shows this emotion? Prehaps it is Walter regretting Rorschach's words?

The kids look a bit young to understand what 'Whore' means, don't they?

ETA: Well, lock me in a fridge and call me Moloch, EmPiiRe x beat me to it!

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:14 am 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
His deadpan mask does slip, yes. The thing is, is it Walter coming into play for the split-second he shows this emotion? Prehaps it is Walter regretting Rorschach's words?
I see him similarly as Batman. Rorschach is his true "face"; Walter is a mask used to disguise his true nature. There is no Walter. He's dead; he died long ago. What we see as Walter is just a illusion.

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The kids look a bit young to understand what 'Whore' means, don't they?
How old was that boy? About 10? That would be same age that Walter was bullied called a "whoreson". He seemed to know what that world meant. If the boy didn't know what it exactly meant, he would associate it as a "bad word", nevertheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:21 am 
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DogWithHeadSplitOpen wrote:
Lady_Rorschach wrote:
His deadpan mask does slip, yes. The thing is, is it Walter coming into play for the split-second he shows this emotion? Prehaps it is Walter regretting Rorschach's words?
I see him similarly as Batman. Rorschach is his true "face"; Walter is a mask used to disguise his true nature. There is no Walter. He's dead; he died long ago. What we see as Walter is just a illusion.

Quote:
The kids look a bit young to understand what 'Whore' means, don't they?
How old was that boy? About 10? That would be same age that Walter was bullied called a "whoreson". He seemed to know what that world meant. If the boy didn't know what it exactly meant, he would associate it as a "bad word", nevertheless.


But Walter knew what his mother's occupation was when he was 10 years old. There was one trait in the landlady that, I think, Rors was surprised to find in that kind of 'working girl': love for her children, something he never knew himself. He painted all prostitues the same color as his mother: unloving, cold and thus not worthy of his respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:22 am 
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DogWithHeadSplitOpen wrote:
I see him similarly as Batman. Rorschach is his true "face"; Walter is a mask used to disguise his true nature. There is no Walter. He's dead; he died long ago. What we see as Walter is just a illusion.


I disagree. It's very immature to say Kovacs no longer exists. Rorschach is Walter Kovacs. A traumatized, brutalized Kovacs, but it's the same memories, the same history, the same man. Somebody who gets exposed to something traumatic or life-changing is not a separate person afterward, no matter how different they might seem. Rorschach does not exist in a vacuum. He is the product of Walter Kovacs' memories, Kovacs' experiences, Kovacs' reactions.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:32 am 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
I disagree. It's very immature to say Kovacs no longer exists. Rorschach is Walter Kovacs. A traumatized, brutalized Kovacs, but it's the same memories, the same history, the same man. Somebody who gets exposed to something traumatic or life-changing is not a separate person afterward, no matter how different they might seem. Rorschach does not exist in a vacuum. He is the product of Walter Kovacs' memories, Kovacs' experiences, Kovacs' reactions.

Agreed. And his final scene is proof enough that Walter was not fully eaten by the mask.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:52 am 
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Ronch Ronch Ronch wrote:
EmPiiRe x wrote:
I disagree. It's very immature to say Kovacs no longer exists. Rorschach is Walter Kovacs. A traumatized, brutalized Kovacs, but it's the same memories, the same history, the same man. Somebody who gets exposed to something traumatic or life-changing is not a separate person afterward, no matter how different they might seem. Rorschach does not exist in a vacuum. He is the product of Walter Kovacs' memories, Kovacs' experiences, Kovacs' reactions.

Agreed. And his final scene is proof enough that Walter was not fully eaten by the mask.


While Rors and Walter are the same person, I get a bit of a Jekyll/Hyde vibe.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:11 am 
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I was just reading through and though this discussion might be dead- but I feel like Rorschach didn't "punish" the landlady for being a whore, possibly cheating on welfare, or anything like that because-- as everyone has already said-- because she reminds him of his mother and he sees a bit of himself in her son/children and doesn't want what's happened to him happen to them (though it might be too late already).

But could it also be because (about the welfare) he understands that what she does is for her kids. As crappy and as resentful she might be (or she might not be resentful at all...I don't know), she takes on the responsibility or is forced with this responsibility of taking care of her kids and if cheating on welfare helps do that, he goes ahead and lets it go because of the kids.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Its already been discussed somewhere on the forum i do believe that rorschach never really HATED his mum. As much as he'd like to think so. Of course he saw his mother in his landladym he said it himself.


In the frame when he sees the land ladies son, its the most human you ever see him. Dont you agree?


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's landlady
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Ikke av flesk wrote:
Its already been discussed somewhere on the forum i do believe that rorschach never really HATED his mum. As much as he'd like to think so. Of course he saw his mother in his landladym he said it himself.


In the frame when he sees the land ladies son, its the most human you ever see him. Dont you agree?


I agree. He wanted to hate his mother with every fiber of his being, but there was still that blood-tie he couldn't shake. I think that, during this particular scene, he realized that he was part of his mother's flesh and blood. Having realized that the woman who reminded him so much of his mother was, in reality, a loving mother, perhaps Walter understood that his own mother did what she could for him, even if it wasn't out of love, but because she had to.

Also, I think Rorschach/Walter's most human scene is his unflinching order of his own execution. I get chills just thinking about it...

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