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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:10 pm 
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On that note...

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:24 pm 
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I have been thinking about this recently at college, with a boy in my History class "touching" me in ways which I feel extremely uncomfortable with. We have never been friends and in fact he often makes fun of me for various reasons which I will not go in to now. So anyway he did it to me last week, and I had real trouble restraining myself because I really wanted to just turn around and knock his two front teeth out, and as desperate as I was to do something like this, I didn't, (but I did give him one hell of a mouthful), so I started questioning why Rorschach doesn't seem to have the restraint when confronted with situations like other people have talked about in this thread. The conclusion I came to is that Rorschach already feels so disconnected from society, so outcast that it doesn't make a difference how he responds, so he lets his instinct guide him, and acts on impulse. Perhaps a reason for this is his upbringing. His mum is most likely a prostitute, this gives Rorschach, from a very young age, a very ugly picture of what sex is, and it is clear that many people crave this thing which Rorschach finds so revolting, leading him to take his anger out on those wrong-do'ers, as arguably it is people like these who made his childhood miserable. The fact that sex is used to sell so many things shows rorschach that it is what most of humankind crave, hence why he puts "whores and politicians" next to each other in one of his opening journal entries, because one is no better than the other. And finally, another take is that Rorschach is essentially an example of what society would be like if we did not restrain the anger that we sometimes feel against other people.

Sorry that was a rather long post, but once I got one idea rolling i had to finish it. (btw I am a boy, sorry for the weird statement, but it is kind of relevant to my opening story)

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Wow Good for you. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for someone, especially someone a lot of people hate.


Yeah honestly even a lot of people on the site who were friends with him and didn't like me said good things about me for what I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:13 pm 
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Hot fat guy (I do like how this has become his name) got what he deserved. Rorschach knew that he was trying to play some mind game on him, and was assuming that, because his identity had been revealed and he was shut up with them in prison, that he'd be a pushover, and be scared of them all. Of course this only means that hot fat guy was a fool and got told. Twice. With hot fat, and then that immortal line about them being stuck with Rorschach, not the other way around. It was a lesson that hot fat guy had to be taught, as well as everyone else in the prison. Rorschach can play mind games too.

Same with bullies. If they bully you, then they've got to expect that one day you might take matters into your own hands and defend yourself. I've thrown someone across a room and into a wall for deeply offending me once, and I don't mean verbally, I mean for assaulting me. I had asked him nicely. Then I spoke to him in the only language he understood; sadly, violence. I'm normally a very very laid back person.

I think the hot fat guy scene actually sums up Walter/Rorschach very well. When he doesn't need to speak, or act out, he just stays silent, withdrawn, detached from things. But when something happens, he instantly responds, asserts himself, intimidates his attackers, makes sure people know that he means business and won't back down. It's a striking juxtaposition between the two sides of his personality. Hot fat guy was only slightly idiotic to intimidate him....

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:00 am 
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Hello folks, I'm quite touched by the stories in this thread.

Raine, I feel you did the right thing when you defended the sick guy. For me this is another way of "never compromise". Even though he was horrible towards you, you stayed true to your emotional principles and stood up for him when s/o hurt him on the lowest level possible. I think you can be very proud of yourself.


I can sympathize with a lot of what I've read here, coz as a kid we moved very often and at school I always was among the outcasts. Now I am and have always been a total whatstheword peacenik, I'd never attack s/o. But each time I have been attacked I always tried to fight back. It was on impulse. I almost never managed to hurt s/o then, but I swear I tried!

When I saw Rorschach pouring the boiling fat over his attacker I was shocked. This is one of the most horrible injuries you can afflict on s/o. I was appalled, but I also thought, heck, he did—not the 'right' thing but, perhaps—the appropriate thing. It was in self-defence, and it worked.
Though the hot fat was an extreme measure. Rorschach could have tried something else, eg. shoving the guy's head into the counter, that would have saved his life, too.
But being Rorschach he fought back as violently and effectively as possible, and he made his point. You don't mess with Rorschach. He's been messed with a lot when he was a kid, and it's not going to happen again.
It's ugly, but it makes sense.

In the movie things are a bit different, as others have pointed out before. In the movie the hot fat is an afterthought, and I don't like it so much. In the book Rorschach acts pragmatically. In the movie he acts a bit sadistically, and that's, for me, the line that must not be crossed when it comes to violence.

Violence as a means to stop something awful, as a means of self defence, executed in the intensive spur of the moment, is, well, natural.

But violence as an afterthought, as revenge, as punishment is something I detest.

And now that I have written that down I wonder why I have no problem at all with Rorschach's cruel execution of Grice.
Perhaps it's because of the extremity of Grice's crime, so that I feel the impact on Rorschach was so huge that he's still, hm, 'acting on impulse' when he's already standing outside the burning building.

Hurm. Must investigate further into own mind...

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:24 am 
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DCR wrote:

In the movie things are a bit different, as others have pointed out before. In the movie the hot fat is an afterthought, and I don't like it so much. In the book Rorschach acts pragmatically. In the movie he acts a bit sadistically, and that's, for me, the line that must not be crossed when it comes to violence.

Violence as a means to stop something awful, as a means of self defence, executed in the intensive spur of the moment, is, well, natural.

But violence as an afterthought, as revenge, as punishment is something I detest.

And now that I have written that down I wonder why I have no problem at all with Rorschach's cruel execution of Grice.
Perhaps it's because of the extremity of Grice's crime, so that I feel the impact on Rorschach was so huge that he's still, hm, 'acting on impulse' when he's already standing outside the burning building.


I noticed that in the movie, about how the hot fat is something he thinks of after defending himself for the first time, and I similarly didn't like it. It's not like as though Rorschach would be is any less violent out of acting in self defence in the graphic novel-if anything, the fact that there is no action right before he throws the fat in the graphic novel makes it all the more shocking and violent. Rorschach incidentally acts out of self defence in a very violent manner out of instinct-reminds me of the cigarette + eye= hurt in his childhood-so yeah I agree in the movie that comes across as mere sadism, not instinctively violent self defence.

As for the Grice incident....I think it just highlights the contradiction in Rorschach. There are some things that are just going to push him well over the edge, no matter how much he tries to tell himself that he controls himself completely and is his own master. He seems to lose his mind, completely, in incidents where the victim is completely innocent and defenceless, which explains the sadism in his punishment of Grice. He doesn't get excessively sadistic in prison in the graphic novel at least because he's defending himself, and he knows he can protect himself. But with the Grice incident....he was essentially doing the bizarre thing of defending the image of the little girl, who has already been taken, and killed, and could not defend herself. Hence the extreme sadism. Possibly, anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Alea iacta est wrote:
He seems to lose his mind, completely, in incidents where the victim is completely innocent and defenceless, which explains the sadism in his punishment of Grice. He doesn't get excessively sadistic in prison in the graphic novel at least because he's defending himself, and he knows he can protect himself. But with the Grice incident....he was essentially doing the bizarre thing of defending the image of the little girl, who has already been taken, and killed, and could not defend herself. Hence the extreme sadism. Possibly, anyway?
Hm... this makes sense to me.
The Roche case triggers two traumata: a female getting hurt ("Mum I'm sorry! I thought he was hurting you.") and s/o innocent getting hurt (him being bullied). He goes over the edge.

I mean, there is no denying that Rorschach has strong sadistic urges (something for the sexuality thread), but 'normally' he can rationalise himself acting on them by 'doing his job' (interrogation) or defending himself.

Thanks, your post helped me a lot with my own-mind-investigation. <|8)


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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:22 pm 
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The hot fat thing didn't really bother me in the movie because that's pretty much all Rorschach does.

Unnecessarily hurts people. Why should that time be any different?

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:06 am 
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DCR wrote:
Alea iacta est wrote:
He seems to lose his mind, completely, in incidents where the victim is completely innocent and defenceless, which explains the sadism in his punishment of Grice. He doesn't get excessively sadistic in prison in the graphic novel at least because he's defending himself, and he knows he can protect himself. But with the Grice incident....he was essentially doing the bizarre thing of defending the image of the little girl, who has already been taken, and killed, and could not defend herself. Hence the extreme sadism. Possibly, anyway?
Hm... this makes sense to me.
The Roche case triggers two traumata: a female getting hurt ("Mum I'm sorry! I thought he was hurting you.") and s/o innocent getting hurt (him being bullied). He goes over the edge.

I mean, there is no denying that Rorschach has strong sadistic urges (something for the sexuality thread), but 'normally' he can rationalise himself acting on them by 'doing his job' (interrogation) or defending himself.

Thanks, your post helped me a lot with my own-mind-investigation. <|8)


Haha, nice subtle "something for the sexuality thread", I'm sure that'd be an interesting thread to resurrect in time for Christmas....I think that connecting the Grice incident and the case of him attempting to protect his mother as a young boy makes perfect sense. Also I remember he says "mother" after killing the dogs? More proof that in his mind the involvement of the innocent female means big psychological fallout, entangled as it is with his hatred for the mother he once tried to protect.

People Must Be Told: Yes, you're obviously right-I did mean that it pushed Walter over the edge, not Rorschach, I am always getting the two mixed up. It's annoying how getting the names wrong renders my entire argument wrong. Like you said Rorschach is just a construct.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:10 am 
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Alea iacta est wrote:
People Must Be Told: Yes, you're obviously right-I did mean that it pushed Walter over the edge, not Rorschach [...]. Like you said Rorschach is just a construct.
What can I say? I agree.
We don't have a split personality here, but Kovacs and his construct.


People Must Be Told. wrote:
I don't think Rorschach would have considered his actions to be sadistic,
Of course not! He rationalises them.
Quote:
certainly not conducted in such a manner simply for sadism's sake alone... rather, he was merely exacting his new and absolute doctrine of natural justice, of the punishment fitting the crime... an eye for an eye.
I agree, too. In the movie he is depicted in a slightly different light (in all the prison scenes), but in the book his actions are pragmatic (albeit extreme), never more than what he thinks he has to do, and it doesn't look as if he really enjoys it. Not in the way the Comedian enjoys what he does.

Must investigate further before moving on to the sexuality thread.



People Must Be Told. wrote:
On the subject of symbolism, I think it can also be argued that utterly destroying a disused dressmaker's premises which he has discovered to be full of tailoring dummies was an act carried out by Rorschach having first given absolute and driving consideration to the profound methaphorical significance such an action would hold for him and his own continued existence.
(...)

Whilst watching Grice's hovel burn for over an hour, Rorschach confesses he didn't dwell upon either Grice or Blair Roche's deaths but rather instead stood imagining the tailor's dummies, the "limbless felt torsos" inside, burning; we the reader are even presented with panels depicting the dummies consumed by flames ourselves, no doubt as visualised by Rorschach in his mind's eye.
"It can also be argued"—?!? It's crystal clear, and I am totally embarrassed, coz I must admit this never occured to me before you pointed it out.
I did notice the dummies, of course, and knew they are significant to Kovacs, but I never thought about them any further. Duh.
(One reason: not being a native speaker I never really understood what was meant by "limbless felt torsos". Argh. I thought of the dogs and I think I kinda associated "listless felt torsos". Yes, I am embarrassed.)



Alea iacta est wrote:
Also I remember he says "mother" after killing the dogs? More proof that in his mind the involvement of the innocent female means big psychological fallout, entangled as it is with his hatred for the mother he once tried to protect.
His hatred covers the pain and longing and need he has for his mother's love. Kovacs calling our for her when trying to deal with the fate of the Roche girl proves it.

Gosh, that sounds corny, eh? But I'm not saying this because I have read too many chic-fics. I am saying so, coz I have met traumatized people.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:33 am 
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I believe you. That didn't sound corny at all. Walter's entire backstory could arguably get a bit corny if it was done by anyone other than Moore, but he sets it in the right context so that it's tragic and chilling rather than being simplified chick-lit psychology. I found that line the seminal moment in his characterisation. I thought Moore had created an interesting character way before that, but that clinched it.

Back to the idea of the hot fat, I definitely see him as a follower of that saying "eye for an eye". It represents the sort of non compromise that appeals to him. He sees criminals as deserving of whatever punishment he deals out to them, and I find his character fascinating for that-he gives as good as he gets, and he's either brutal, raging and violent, or silent, detached, controlled (or so he'd want to believe). When reading the prison scenes in the graphic novel I really enjoyed watching his silent indifference to the insults and threats hurled at him by the other inmates as he was brought in (not a single muscle of his face moves, here is a man who can simply switch off and dwell under the surface of his consciousness when the situation requires it) and then the way he suddenly switches from that to flinging hot fat into someone's face.

Of course, you could comment on what sort of view he holds of himself, if he sees himself as the one to rightfully punish criminals with brutality....but that's getting all Nietzsche-y....gazing into the abyss and all that. Interests me no end but probably bores everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:53 am 
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Alea iacta est wrote:
(...) Interests me no end but probably bores everyone else.
Are you kidding me? This is RS we're talking about. :mrgreen:

But perhaps we could move this discussion elsewhere (Rorschach?) or split and/or merge this part of the thread — I am unsure. I would love to go deep into the 34.652.374th Rorschach discussion, but I feel this thread started as something else.
I'll wait a little while and see what happens, but if nothing happens and no one has a better idea I'll continue right here.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:00 am 
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Yeah I agree. I await some action from the omnipotent, omniscient mods. The thread on Rorschach's sexuality would be an interesting one to resurrect too. Because nothing says Christmas more than the Madonna/Whore complex and repressed sexual desire....

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