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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:00 am 
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My story isn't as violent as everyone elses. But when I was around 13, this kid grabbed me around the neck & started choking me. I tore his hands off & hit him right in the face! He started crying. He got what he deserved. So did hot fat guy & Grice. I have nothing further to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:40 am 
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The thing is that no matter how much I may believe someone may deserve something, I usually can't bring myself to hurt them back. All I can do is keep picturing the pain I'd be causing over and over again in my head, and that is a powerful source of hesitation for me. Even if it's what the other person has coming to them, I'd be imagining the pain all the time, and probably expecting karma to swoop in and similarly injure me.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:31 am 
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Raine Summerfly wrote:
Oh I'm sorry that I hadn't seen this until now! I have not visited the forum for a while. I actually recently found out that my mother has cancer. ;_; I was still active on another board I go to....but I haven't been here for a while.


Oh, no problem. Totally understandable under the circumstances. My sympathies, by the way.

Raine Summerfly wrote:
there was this one girl who would insult me and I had this fantasy in my mind about biting her cheek and ripping it


I've had those same types of violent fantasies myself. My friend Alex once told me that everyone has them. Everyone thinks of things like that, but what separates us from animals is that we can control them. We know how to stop ourselves from doing anything more than just thinking about it, and everyone has to deal with that. I agreed with that then, and I do now, too.

Raine Summerfly wrote:
I'm touched that you think I'm beautiful by the way. Some people do find me beautiful but a lot of people also don't appreciate the fact that I have that birthmark.


You're welcome. It's only the truth.

meganphntmgrl wrote:
The thing is that no matter how much I may believe someone may deserve something, I usually can't bring myself to hurt them back. All I can do is keep picturing the pain I'd be causing over and over again in my head, and that is a powerful source of hesitation for me. Even if it's what the other person has coming to them, I'd be imagining the pain all the time, and probably expecting karma to swoop in and similarly injure me.


I don't believe in Karma/fate/what have you. For whatever reason, I think that later on I would be sorry that I did something to someone (as I am for that kid I punched), but I wouldn't end up feeling too terribly bad about it. I would hope more that the person learned something from it than anything. I think that, for me, it is possible for me to hate someone so much that I could do that to them (in retaliation, of course, not out of the clear blue sky) and never feel bad about it. As I said, when I was in Jr. High and High School, there were people I truly wished to eviscerate. To this day, there are people I wish to seriously harm. I don't do anything about those fantasies, mind you, because I still think that I am, for the most part, a well rounded human being, despite any implications otherwise that could be extrapolated from some of the things I have said in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:25 pm 
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J. Kovacs wrote:
My story isn't as violent as everyone elses. But when I was around 13, this kid grabbed me around the neck & started choking me. I tore his hands off & hit him right in the face! He started crying. He got what he deserved. So did hot fat guy & Grice. I have nothing further to say.

....You..tore his hands off? :shock:

Ouch.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:19 am 
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I'm sure you're just being facetious, but J. Kovacs meant he forcibly removed his attacker's hands from around his neck.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Oh thank god. :|

(Yeah I was just being facetious)

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:02 am 
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Yeah guys. Though I'd like to tear a guy's hands off. I'm not that beastly, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:28 am 
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Janx wrote:
I wanted to mention something else about that particular scene (at least the way it ran in the movie; I think it goes the same way in the GN but I could be mistaken): the aftermath of Rorschach throwing hot fat on the inmate parallels the episode when he was a child. Rorschach's just standing there, doing absolutely nothing because he's already taken out the person who was trying to kill him, and the guards come flying in and beat the crap out of him like he somehow needs to be subdued at this point. :roll: It reminds me of the bystanders who freaked out when he was a kid, after he'd thrashed the bigger boys who weren't just insulting him but threatening to do him bodily harm.


And what the hell did you wanted the guards to do? ask him nicely if he could just go to his cell? he threw boiling fat at another prisoner, regardless of the morality of the matter, they had to subdue him and stop him from hurting anyone else at the moment.

I can live with some people defending Rorschach to the end, but sometimes it's too much.

On topic, i felt no sympathy for the prisoner, that doesn't mean i approve of what Rorschach does willingly and in situations where he has a choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Sun-chained-in-ink wrote:
Raine Summerfly wrote:
Oh I'm sorry that I hadn't seen this until now! I have not visited the forum for a while. I actually recently found out that my mother has cancer. ;_; I was still active on another board I go to....but I haven't been here for a while.


Oh, no problem. Totally understandable under the circumstances. My sympathies, by the way.

Raine Summerfly wrote:
there was this one girl who would insult me and I had this fantasy in my mind about biting her cheek and ripping it


I've had those same types of violent fantasies myself. My friend Alex once told me that everyone has them. Everyone thinks of things like that, but what separates us from animals is that we can control them. We know how to stop ourselves from doing anything more than just thinking about it, and everyone has to deal with that. I agreed with that then, and I do now, too.

Raine Summerfly wrote:
I'm touched that you think I'm beautiful by the way. Some people do find me beautiful but a lot of people also don't appreciate the fact that I have that birthmark.


You're welcome. It's only the truth.

meganphntmgrl wrote:
The thing is that no matter how much I may believe someone may deserve something, I usually can't bring myself to hurt them back. All I can do is keep picturing the pain I'd be causing over and over again in my head, and that is a powerful source of hesitation for me. Even if it's what the other person has coming to them, I'd be imagining the pain all the time, and probably expecting karma to swoop in and similarly injure me.


I don't believe in Karma/fate/what have you. For whatever reason, I think that later on I would be sorry that I did something to someone (as I am for that kid I punched), but I wouldn't end up feeling too terribly bad about it. I would hope more that the person learned something from it than anything. I think that, for me, it is possible for me to hate someone so much that I could do that to them (in retaliation, of course, not out of the clear blue sky) and never feel bad about it. As I said, when I was in Jr. High and High School, there were people I truly wished to eviscerate. To this day, there are people I wish to seriously harm. I don't do anything about those fantasies, mind you, because I still think that I am, for the most part, a well rounded human being, despite any implications otherwise that could be extrapolated from some of the things I have said in this thread.


Yeah I think that everyone has violent fantasies sometimes....especially about people who hurt you. I've never attacked anyone though, even the people who hurt me. If anyone ever puts my life at danger though....I'll have to attack them. I'm not very strong though. The most I've done to people who hurt me when I was a kid....I bit them.

Anyway, we found out what kind of skin cancer my mom has now. The had taken a biopsy and we didn't know what kind it was yet but we do now. It's this kind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_cell_carcinoma

Thankfully it's not a kind that usually kills people. So she should be okay. Of course my mom already has multiple sclerosis too. :(

I wonder if redheads get skin cancer more easily. My mom's a redhead and they don't really tan much from the sun....they just burn. I have to be careful myself since I'm a blonde.

Anyway back about the topic.....yeah there are some people in this world that I really don't like. :( I don't know about hate but I really dislike them. Some people are just so mean to other people and it's just disgusting.

I also think it's lame how.....well I am a virgin okay. And people who don't like me who know I'm a virgin like to say that I'm just one because I'm so hideous due to my birthmark. The fact is I decided to be a virgin so far in my life. I don't want to be one forever but I made the choice to be one so far. It's lame how I get taunted for being one though. -_- I makes me mad.

J. Kovacs wrote:
Yeah guys. Though I'd like to tear a guy's hands off. I'm not that beastly, though.


I read an article recently about some guy who slashed off the hand of some guy who broke into his house and killed him. He did it with a sword of course.

I have a sword in my house too and well, hopefully no one breaks in or I might have to use it on them.

Two guys broke into our place before when we were staying in Florida actually. I was only a little child back then in the 80's. The guys slashed our screen with a knife. When they saw my dad though, they just ran.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:22 am 
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I live in a city where you have to think about twice about what you say or what you do, because you never know if you're dealing with someone who is more than willing to kill you, in those matters, though, I think that its better to put up a fight instead of just letting things happen to you or the people with you.

When I was in Elementary School, two kids from my class were always bothering me. I hit them once and the teacher defended them said they were in their right to make fun of me (I'm not making any of this up) and that I shouldn't hit anybody. They kept bothering me. They hit me again and I got in trouble again. A third time around, they kept annoying me and I hit them again and they learned this time and the teacher for some reason, decided to defend me this time around.

From then on, though, I have to say that it's very easy for me to get very angry or very depressed but I always try to get ahold of my feelings. I've learned to filter them through other ways, I don't think I'd hit anybody, I'd probably do something less violent like jumping on someone and give them a hug. It's pretty easy for me to shrug things off, I am like Richard Dreyfuss in Jaws, I just turn around and think "Hahaha, they're all gonna die".

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Quote:
I live in a city where you have to think about twice about what you say or what you do, because you never know if you're dealing with someone who is more than willing to kill you, in those matters, though, I think that its better to put up a fight instead of just letting things happen to you or the people with you.

When I was in Elementary School, two kids from my class were always bothering me. I hit them once and the teacher defended them said they were in their right to make fun of me (I'm not making any of this up) and that I shouldn't hit anybody. They kept bothering me. They hit me again and I got in trouble again. A third time around, they kept annoying me and I hit them again and they learned this time and the teacher for some reason, decided to defend me this time around.


This kind of thing happened to me all the time back in elementary. Eventually, I learned that the only way to make the other kids stop bothering me and tearing up my stuff was to hit them. By the time I got to high school, word had got around. No one tried to hurt me or steal my things or rip up my books by then. I must say that on the whole, college is much more civilized.

My teachers didn't even bother defending anyone, though. They would just sit on the sidelines, watching us tear each other apart. It was weird because a lot of those teachers were friends of my parents. :|

So to get this thread back on topic, yeah, I think Rorschach did the right thing in taking out the inmate with the hot fat, as well as Grice via burning him alive/chopping his head open. Rorschach was delivering justice to the latter (can anyone tell me with certainty that Grice wouldn't have gotten parole in ten years?) and was defending himself against the prison inmate the only way he could; the only way that it would be understood and respected by the other prisoners.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:00 pm 
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Luipaard wrote:
So to get this thread back on topic, yeah, I think Rorschach did the right thing in taking out the inmate with the hot fat, as well as Grice via burning him alive/chopping his head open. Rorschach was delivering justice to the latter (can anyone tell me with certainty that Grice wouldn't have gotten parole in ten years?) and was defending himself against the prison inmate the only way he could; the only way that it would be understood and respected by the other prisoners.


What makes you think that Grice would've gotten parole in ten years ? the system has several issues, but (no offense) you don't have any proof that merits that statement, and even if that was the case, should Rorschach really have acted on his assumptions ? to the discussion it doesn't matter, because we all know he didn't, what happened was that he went insane, consequentially he became detached from reality, and in the process ended up burning alive/chopping Grice's head open.

In the case of the prison, there are two ways this goes, in the comic Rorschach is about to be stabbed when he grabs the fat and inmediately throws it on the prisoner, this was clearly and doubtlessly an act of self-defense, yes, it was brutal, but it was self-defense.

In the movie it's not self-defense, in the movie he incapacitates the prisoner, but it is then that he decides to apply his own brand of justice, and thus he willingly breaks the window with his elbow, grabs the fat and throws it on the inmate.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Point taken about Grice, though I'd say that it's worth noting that it's a common view of the American criminal justice system.

Quote:
In the case of the prison, there are two ways this goes, in the comic Rorschach is about to be stabbed when he grabs the fat and inmediately throws it on the prisoner, this was clearly and doubtlessly an act of self-defense, yes, it was brutal, but it was self-defense.

In the movie it's not self-defense, in the movie he incapacitates the prisoner, but it is then that he decides to apply his own brand of justice, and thus he willingly breaks the window with his elbow, grabs the fat and throws it on the inmate.


He doesn't incapacitate his attacker, though (in the movie). He only manages to stun him; he was still in a life-threatening situation. Mr. Autograph would NOT have backed down, not unless he wanted to lose face in front of the other inmates (never mind what his other motivations were). I'd say that Rorschach was defending himself -- and not just from Mr. Autograph, but from the intent of the other prisoners. "If you try to kill me, this is what I will do to you." Rorschach's attacker would not have stopped, not until Rorschach was dead.

I think a lot of this argument depends on how much one likes Rorschach, and whether he was in the right about, well, anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:53 pm 
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lol Mr. Autograph.

I think he ended up losing a lot of face anyway if you know what I mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Luipaard wrote:
He doesn't incapacitate his attacker, though (in the movie). He only manages to stun him; he was still in a life-threatening situation. Mr. Autograph would NOT have backed down, not unless he wanted to lose face in front of the other inmates (never mind what his other motivations were). I'd say that Rorschach was defending himself -- and not just from Mr. Autograph, but from the intent of the other prisoners. "If you try to kill me, this is what I will do to you." Rorschach's attacker would not have stopped, not until Rorschach was dead.


Most likely, if any of us end up in a maximum security prison, we would have to kill other inmates, because an impression does matter, nevertheless, we are not as capable as Rorschach, the latter is very skilled in combat and intimidation, so he didn't had to prove anything to anyone, in the first place because he already had a reputation, so it didn't matter how much face he showed or how many criminals he killed, everyone in that prison would still want his head.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:03 pm 
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I really need to go back to the book again, and I have read a bit of what other people wrote and this is my view:

In prison, the hot fat scene, I think it had to happen, it was a necessity. Anything less and the guy would have got back up, or the people around rorschach would have attacked him. Pouring the hot fat on the guy meant that people backed away and Rorschach. I wouldn't normally condone this, but as far as i can see it needed to happen.

As for the burning of the guy who killed Roche, I was totally sickened by this scene in the film. I felt so awkward watching the hatchet blows. I think for anyone to leave the world in that way is awful, no matter who they are, and as far as I am concerned makes Rorschach just as nasty. I don't think he needed to do it, although I can see reasons why, yes the man was dreadful, but I think the way in which Rorschach dealt with him was a step too far. He should have left an anonymous tip for the police, even if that isn't his style.

I found that scene horrible in the book as well, I think in terms of narrative it is a brilliant scene as it really causes us to question Rorschach as a human being, and even though I loved his character overall in the book, it is moments like this that make me remember that he is just as much of a monster as the Comedian is, even though he and Veidt get most of the hate.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:27 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster,...

My mantra is: Battle monsters if you like....but watch yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:49 am 
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Something just happened to me about 2 weeks ago that I think has relevance in this topic.

It happened on another forum I go to.

There was this guy there who often bashed me and made fun of me all the time based on what I look like. He was banned a bunch of times for attacking me although he'd still come back and do it again....calling me "Hide your children and grab your shotgun ugly." and things like that, along with implying that if he could kill people over the internet, he'd kill me.

Well what happened is that he then found out he has cancer.....and it was really bad. He wasn't going to live.

Anyway, someone else who the guy had made fun of decided to go and bash him and make fun of the fact that he's dying of cancer. I thought that was extremely low, so I said something to the guy(the guy who was picking on the bully who had cancer). I said that no one deserves that, and that it was low.

This is exactly what I said(went back and looked at what I wrote exactly, although I'm going to remove the person's name):

"Wait a minute _______ has cancer and you went and bashed him?

Wow. Dude, that's low. I have had problems with _______ before but I feel bad if he has cancer. I don't wish that on anyone. That's pretty low for you to do that. I don't approve of that either."

So I stood up for someone who'd done nothing but be cruel to me.

Later that night, the guy passed away from the cancer. This was a few weeks ago, and he hasn't been around since so I'm pretty sure he really did have cancer and die. The guy who made fun of him for having cancer was banned, as he should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot fat
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Wow Good for you. It takes a lot of guts to stand up for someone, especially someone a lot of people hate.

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