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 Post subject: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:12 pm 
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A thought occurred to me as I was rereading the graphic novel.

At the end of Chapter VIII, a gang of knot-tops learned that Nite Owl had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, without any regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Nite Owl (albeit the wrong one) and clubbed him to death. They later fled the scene, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes?

I think there is a parallel there. It raises the question of precisely who we should trust with our lives and why. Would anyone care to comment on that?

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:56 am 
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Good point! But these vigilants are not masked.


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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:57 am 
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i should read that part again...i'm still on issue #5

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:25 am 
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tbh the Knot Tops are one of the aspects of the book I never really got...
nice observation, Curi
I shall look at them more the next time I read the book

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:40 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
A thought occurred to me as I was rereading the graphic novel.

At the end of Chapter VIII, a gang of knot-tops learned that Nite Owl had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, without any regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Nite Owl (albeit the wrong one) and clubbed him to death. They later fled the scene, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes?

I think there is a parallel there. It raises the question of precisely who we should trust with our lives and why. Would anyone care to comment on that?

From my interpretation, the knot tops action is typical mob mentality. It's an action without due process, a misdirected anger. Top that with unreliable sources and the need of swift justice to be served, you'll get senseless violence.

It's funny that we see that the violence was cruel from a third person perspective, albeit from reading the GN or hearing it over the news, but when you're part of the herd, it made sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
A thought occurred to me as I was rereading the graphic novel.

At the end of Chapter VIII, a gang of knot-tops learned that Nite Owl had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, without any regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Nite Owl (albeit the wrong one) and clubbed him to death. They later fled the scene, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes?

I think there is a parallel there. It raises the question of precisely who we should trust with our lives and why. Would anyone care to comment on that?


I think your comparison is right on the money. The mention of mob mentality by Mr. Junky Dude is an interesting point, as well. Tearing down and examining the "underwear perverts" in a sort-of real setting begs for a comparison to the costumed vigilantes known as the Ku Klux Klan. Replace their hoods with knotted hair and I think you're getting somewhere. Replace knotted hair with a cape or a cowl and I think we're definitely on the right track.


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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:26 am 
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One thing that always confused me was, how did Dan know the Knot-Tops killed Mason? Did I miss the part when he found out? He and Rorshach just show up at Happy Harry's and it seems that he (Dan) know's the Knot-Tops were responsible.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:36 am 
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Alfonso wrote:
One thing that always confused me was, how did Dan know the Knot-Tops killed Mason? Did I miss the part when he found out? He and Rorshach just show up at Happy Harry's and it seems that he (Dan) know's the Knot-Tops were responsible.
Chapter X, pg. 15, panel 7.

Rorschach is interrogating at Happy Harry's. Nite Owl approaches a Knot-Top acting suspiciously. The Knot Top talks back.

Knot Top: "I heard the news. Blaming that Mason guy's murder on knot tops, I thought 'Shit! Like they needed another excuse to hassle us!'"

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:58 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Alfonso wrote:
One thing that always confused me was, how did Dan know the Knot-Tops killed Mason? Did I miss the part when he found out? He and Rorshach just show up at Happy Harry's and it seems that he (Dan) know's the Knot-Tops were responsible.
Chapter X, pg. 15, panel 7.

Rorschach is interrogating at Happy Harry's. Nite Owl approaches a Knot-Top acting suspiciously. The Knot Top talks back.

Knot Top: "I heard the news. Blaming that Mason guy's murder on knot tops, I thought 'Shit! Like they needed another excuse to hassle us!'"



Thanks for clearing things up Curi. I don't have my copies withing reach and I haven't re-read it in a while. Damn, I really do hope this movie doesn't disappoint, but I still have so many doubts. I wish there was some kind of reassureance. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:44 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
A thought occurred to me as I was rereading the graphic novel.

At the end of Chapter VIII, a gang of knot-tops learned that Nite Owl had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, without any regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Nite Owl (albeit the wrong one) and clubbed him to death. They later fled the scene, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes?

I think there is a parallel there. It raises the question of precisely who we should trust with our lives and why. Would anyone care to comment on that?



I find it funny that you bring up the Knot-Tops, but if you recall Rorshach did the same thing; with the exeption of the mistaken identity.
So to answer your question, no, they are not diffrent from "superheroes". However, they are not superheroes, they do not consider themselves as such,but they are selfish and not very wise (with the exception of Veidt).

Rorshach killed the child predator as an act of justice for what he(predator) had done to the little girl. He felt that this was the punishment that fit the crime, and so he proceeded to kill him. In his eyes he was bringing him to justice. So what's so different abou the Knot-Tops? (with the exeption of killing Mason instead of Dan)
They felt that for "springing" Rorshach (bringing back a criminal who did not belong there), whom they had such animosity towards, and doing the oposite of what is expected of heroes, Night Owl deserved to be killed as punishment for his crime. Sadly Mason lost his life to them, for their lack of judgement and angry violence. But this aside, the Knot-Tops, were killing Night Owl in their minds, and Mason was the representation of him. So both the Knot-Tops and Rorshach were bringing criminals to justice, according to themselves.

So what makes the two acts so different? (again, excluding the case of mistaken identity).
and why is it that the Knot-Tops are brought to our attention?

just a thought...


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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:50 am 
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funny how two people have the same avatar. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
A thought occurred to me as I was rereading the graphic novel.

At the end of Chapter VIII, a gang of knot-tops learned that Nite Owl had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, without any regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Nite Owl (albeit the wrong one) and clubbed him to death. They later fled the scene, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes?

I think there is a parallel there. It raises the question of precisely who we should trust with our lives and why. Would anyone care to comment on that?


I want to paraphrase your original post to see if the description still fits:


At the end of October, a group of police learned that Criminal A had committed a crime and set a dangerous criminal free from prison. And so, with regard for evidence, due process or basic human rights, they tracked down Criminal A, arrested him, had him tried, and executed. They went back to work, leaving in total anonymity with only a trail of chaos in their wake.

Are they so different from superheroes? Or Knot-Tops


I'd argue that most of the superheros did follow the law like the police, where as the superhero rogues and the Knot Tops acted against the court of law.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:13 pm 
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[NOTE: Merged. --"Curiosity Inc."]

Ok, i know that ass-hat Derf (if that is his name) and his gang killed poor Hollis, but what I want to know is this: if they knew who Rorschack was, how in God's name didn't they know about NITE OWL II? Did they just blindly assume it was Hollis both times and just wanted to beat him up for no reason or were they too stupid to leave things to, y'know, THE COPS?

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:37 pm 
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First of all, while Dreiberg did announce his retirement in compliance with the Keene Act, he never publicly revealed his identity. Mason, on the other hand, did both.

Secondly, the Knot-Tops didn't hear that Nite Owl II specifically broke Rorschach out of prison. Even if they did hear that last part, how would they have known where to find him? So they just heard "Nite Owl" and connected that back to Mason.

The rest of your post can probably be answered by the previous posts in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
First of all, while Dreiberg did announce his retirement in compliance with the Keene Act, he never publicly revealed his identity. Mason, on the other hand, did both.

Secondly, the Knot-Tops didn't hear that Nite Owl II specifically broke Rorschach out of prison. Even if they did hear that last part, how would they have known where to find him? So they just heard "Nite Owl" and connected that back to Mason.

The rest of your post can probably be answered by the previous posts in this thread.

I still don't understand why Derf wanted to kill "Nite Owl" just because he sprang Rorschack? I recall in the DC of the movie that Rorschack had put one of the members' brother in the slammer, but that CAN'T be the reason they chose to go after "Nite Owl", can it?

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Rorshack101 wrote:
I still don't understand why Derf wanted to kill "Nite Owl" just because he sprang Rorschack? I recall in the DC of the movie that Rorschack had put one of the members' brother in the slammer, but that CAN'T be the reason they chose to go after "Nite Owl", can it?

Chapter VIII, pg. 13, panels 2-6.

Derf was just an ignorant asshole who hated superheroes. That's all there is to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:13 pm 
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Quote:
I still don't understand why Derf wanted to kill "Nite Owl" just because he sprang Rorschack? I recall in the DC of the movie that Rorschack had put one of the members' brother in the slammer, but that CAN'T be the reason they chose to go after "Nite Owl", can it?


I don't think there was supposed to be any particular rhyme or reason. Moore made a point that knot tops are naturally reckless (and probably hopped up on KTs; remember the words of Derf's squeeze near the end of the chapter?) Their youthful stupidity and chaotic mindset, coupled with the fact that it was Rorschach (who probably targeted knot tops along with the cops) led them to beat on Mason.

Junky_dude characterized the knot tops as representative of a
Quote:
typical mob mentality. It's an action without due process, a misdirected anger. Top that with unreliable sources and the need of swift justice to be served, you'll get senseless violence.
Even more than that, Derf and his gang make good symbolism for the public's backlash against vigilantes. If you recall in the last panel of the chapter, the words "IN GRATITUDE" on the base of Mason's trophy are joined together by a blood spatter, forming one word. It's especially poignant since Mason was genuine in his motives for being a vigilante.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:20 pm 
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I see that besides the mistaken identity, Rorschach's actions are no different from the knot-tops, but what I don't get is how can you beet an old man to death under the excuse that he broke a dangerous criminal out of a heavily armed prison? Is it just me or does anyone else see problems with that logic?

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:57 pm 
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You're assuming, Bernard, that logic had anything to do with that murder.

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 Post subject: Re: Knot Tops
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
You're assuming, Bernard, that logic had anything to do with that murder.

Exactly. They were all hopped up on drugs...no logic whatsoever.

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