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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:29 pm 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
Veidt would definitely, definitely not confess. He'd probably also destroy the evidence of his work, leaving less and less room for possible uncovering of his plot.

Totally disagree. We have to assume that Veidt must know that his alien plot will not keep the peace forever. This man is one of the smartest in the world, he has to understand that. That being said, if he knows that his manufactured peace is fleeting, wouldn't he take measures to ensure that a lasting peace can prevail? He would need to entrust the peace of the future to some group of individuals or organizations, which would include perhaps the leaders of his corporation, and the US or other governments, the CIA, etc.. We know the man is thorough and resolute enough to commit himself to such a task.
There's no way that Veidt would trust this to the government. Confessing to murder and fraud of this scale to the CIA would result in immediate detainment and arrest. If the government operative in question was on the ball, Veidt could be prosecuted and the whole thing undone.

And I find it very hard to believe that Veidt's corporation could go on without him. Remember, Veidt was their product. They'll still have his likeness, but that won't be worth much without the man. His corporation elevated Veidt to godlike status, and it's hard to sell a dead god.

Furthermore, I think it was made quite plain that Veidt doesn't really have any friends or confidants. He trusted his servants, his secretary and his pet... and he directly or indirectly killed all of them. Heck, the only reason he let our heroes leave Karnak alive is because he knew that Doc Manhattan, Dan and Laurie wanted to avoid the disastrous consequences of revealing Veidt's plan. He let Rorschach leave because his word wasn't worth squat (and Blotface died anyway. Pity).

In theory, it does make sense that Veidt would want to keep the peace going after his death. But in practice, it doesn't seem like there's anyone he would leave to the task.

Oh, and as a side note, Veidt couldn't keep it going by creating another alien. All the minds behind the construction of the last one were blown up (save one, of course), and genuine psychics don't exactly grow on trees.

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 Post subject: Shades of Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Veidt's plan was not:

Create alien.
Kill half NYC.
Instigate global accord.
Wait and see.

The alien bit was prelude. His REAL plan is what happens later. The assumption that he didn't have a more detailed and involved plan to bring about a workable and enduring peace is to underestimate Adrian Veidt and Alan Moore.

Truly, Adrian Veidt is trying to save the world. He is perhaps the first anti-sociopath in literature. He is unique. Villain? Hero? We'll be arguing about it for generations. Think of it like this... would you give one life to save all mankind? Just one. In order to preserve mankind's survival on this planet?

Once that decision is made, as Jon pointed out, it's all math. If giving one to save mankind makes sense, then so does killing half New York. Plain as day. Just a matter of loading lives into a scale and watching how it tips. Of course, as humans, we don't like to look at it just that way. As a parent, I toss all six and a half billion of you (myself included) into the flames if it gave my own child ten minutes. That's a father's POV. Nothing to do about it.

But don't underestimate Veidt. Once the accord was reached, his plan was just beginning. But it was all details and peace and boredom... no material for a sequel.


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 Post subject: Re: Shades of Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Vynson wrote:
The alien bit was prelude. His REAL plan is what happens later. The assumption that he didn't have a more detailed and involved plan to bring about a workable and enduring peace is to underestimate Adrian Veidt and Alan Moore.

More or less what I was saying. Also, when I said he would have to entrust others to continue his plan, I meant after his death. Until then he would carry out the other phases, whatever they may be, just like Vyn discussed. And when I said "entrust," I meant put aspects of his plan in the hands of others. That doesn't mean give them the full story, or work with them as partners. He could use blackmail, deceit, threats, misdirection, etc. to get others to continue with his plan. Some of these "others" may not even know the course of their actions or that they're even part of a plot or a plan.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:47 am 
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Vynson wrote:

As for the journal... bear in mind that Rorschach was scarcely able to communicate verbally. We have no idea what his journal looked like. He very likely had devolved into a shorthand that was pretty much a useless scrawl.

Vyn, I love most everything you write, but I’m going to respectfully disagree with that paragraph.

We don’t know for sure what Walter’s journal looked like, but there are some indications that it wasn’t just shorthand/scrawl. Let’s look at the clear examples of Walter’s writings (that I know about):

Chapter IV, page 23.6: Walter leaves a note on the body of a dead multiple rapist that reads “neVeR!”

Chapter V, page 3.9: Moloch reads the note Walter has left him in the refrigerator, “BeHinD you. .rr.”

Note that Walter mixes lower and upper case letters inappropriately, just as is lettered in Walter’s journal in the comic. Now look at the comic at an example of Walter’s journal entries. Chapter I, page 1 is easiest. Note that the journal entries are bordered with an irregular jagged edge, as if torn from a page. Also note that every bordered entry has irregular ink blots in it. ALL of his entries are displayed this way, and the ink blots are never used in any other manner, including excerpts from Marooned. Walter’s words are lettered with the familiar mixing of upper and lower case letters, but they are never displayed this way when he speaks. His very last journal entry (Chapter X, page 23.7) shows his “.rr.” signature. All these factors lead me to believe that when we are reading Walter’s journal, this is how it actually looks.

Vynson wrote:
... bear in mind that Rorschach was scarcely able to communicate verbally.


Sure, Walter’s grammar was awful, but I wouldn’t go so far to say he was scarcely able to communicate verbally. He sure totally changed the life of Malcolm Long with his verbal communication. Heck, it’s worth reading again some of the best writing in the whole comic series (Chapter VI, page 26; Walter explaining to Malcolm why he is now “Rorschach”):

“Stood in firelight, sweltering. Blood stain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies at night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion, bear children, hell bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on the morally blank world. Was Rorschach. Does that answer your questions, Doctor?”

I don’t think these are the words of someone scarcely able to communicate verbally. They’re the words of one of the greatest comic characters ever. They’re the words that, if performed properly, will give Jackie Earle Haley a Best Actor nomination.

--Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:47 am 
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Just to tag onto B&B's post above:

Seymour is also able to make out the first lines of Rorschach's journal after it arrives in the mail. He does so without much trouble. Of course, the "dog carcass in alley" line doesn't help propel it to page one of the New Frontiersman... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:54 am 
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Actually he mistakenly says "Dead dog..." which could mean a variety of things:
* the journal entries we see aren't the ones he writes down
* only a few words per sentence are legible
* Seymour is bad at reading or is summing up the line - is Moore hinting at a negative opinion of newspapers?
* just a damn continuity error

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht, you make some good points. Rorschach does make the point of writing have done my best to make this legible.

I think legibility is the least of his problems, however. We're talking about a journal here. And not one that paints a pretty picture, either. Two things have to happen before Veidt's horrible plan can be disclosed.

Firstly, Seymour has to read the journal in it's entirety to get to the punchline. This guy's a bit of a slacker, to put it nicely, and the journal rambles quite a bit. It's going to take some effort for him to wade through Walter's darkly purple prose. Is he going to find it an engaging enough read to try and parse it, or is he going to read a few pages and go WTF?

Assuming he does read it all the way through (and understands it, mind you :roll: ) he's going to have to convince Hector Godfrey that it's real enough to publish (that may actually be the easy part :twisted: assuming he's not in one of his usual rages....)

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:59 pm 
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I'd think if Seymour told his boss "Hey this looks like its by Rorschach" (who's still a celeb kinda!), it'd get some attention.
and in such a dubious paper, they're bound to print anything like that even if fake!
This kinda links into Moore's From Hell, as well as real-life stories like that of the Zodiac killings etc

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:05 pm 
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dandreiberg wrote:
Burgers N Borscht, you make some good points. Rorschach does make the point of writing have done my best to make this legible. I think legibility is the least of his problems, however. We're talking about a journal here. And not one that paints a pretty picture, either. Two things have to happen before Veidt's horrible plan can be disclosed.

Thanks Dan, but my input wasn't written in response to your topic, but instead that I was stunned to see that I didn't agree with Vynson with something. I'm just waiting for him to enlighten me now, as he usually winds up doing.

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 Post subject: B&B
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:11 pm 
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....and I'm just adding my own to cents to the stream of conciousness

such as it is ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:20 am 
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I can appreciate your POV, B&B. And while I will concede that Rorschach has a certain way with words that is as powerful as it is fragmented, I fear this is verbal and not written. I think the portions of the journal we get are him reading it (as only he can) and not the journal itself. I have a few thoughts that may clarify my point of view.

First, there are two journals.

There is the notebook of "rough notes" that the cops found and were hard pressed to read. In fact, the arrest report described it as "one notebook, pages filled with what is either an elaborate cypher or handwriting too cramped and eccentric to be legible."

This explains the two versions of "Dog carcass in alley..." and "Dead dog in alley this morning..."

However, we have no way of knowing if Walter, who obviously is not a very educated man, was capable of expressing all his thoughts in a coherrent manner. And is Seymour going to wade through all his ramblings?

Not that it matters, because... by the time he posts his journal, he still doesn't know jack about what's going on.

He concludes with, "Whatever precise nature of this conspiracy, Adrian Vdiet responsible. Have done best to make this legible. Believe it paints disturbing picture."

This is not exactly damning evidence of anything. Why would any rational person think this had anything to do with the squdgina? Why would Seymour or Godfrey understand the connection? Why would they publish it? Why would anyone believe it?

No, I think Rorschach's journal will never see the light of day and even if it did, that light would not illuminate it.

Unless, of course, Dreiberg or Juspeczyk put the pieces together for everyone and back it up.

Which, from their newly blonde hair, we know isn't going to happen.

But then again,

"Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:07 am 
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It is interesting, though, that Rorschach points out that DAN is convinced Adrian is responsible. Since they know Dan is the Nite Owl, they'll look for him - and Rorschach - and Laurie. When all three turn up missing, that might spark interest in knowing where they went; interest that might be answered by the publication of Rorschach's journal before the press started REALLY looking for where they had gone, freeing the New Frontiersman from the reasonable suspicion of just playing to the popular conspiracy. And think about it; it's not a tough train of events to follow. Adrian had employed everyone that had cancer, he hired his own hitman, all the people that thought he was behind a conspiracy disappeared, all those writers and artists disappeared, etc. etc. It's not impossible to link him to it, and with the proper amount of investigation over the disappearances of every other costumed adventurer, it could happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:22 am 
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Yes, but that's a lot of IFs... and IF you step back it starts to look like a conspiracy theory... and all of a sudden where looking at how much political will there is to undo Veidt's Brave New World.

Besides, Veidt's as omnipresent as Big Brother. How far is he likely to let the New Frontiersman go before the office innocently burns down....

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Veidt isn't expecting the story to be published, though, and once it's out, he can't stop it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:01 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Veidt isn't expecting the story to be published, though, and once it's out, he can't stop it.


But is Big Brother Adrian watching? Want to wager he isn't?

And even assuming it gets out...the Frontiersman is a fringe publication. While it gets token attention (in the interest of balance, mind you) in the Ozymandias Media Empire (bringing you all the dirt, all the time), Doug Roth is there to discredit and bury whatever fermented fertilizer Hector Godfrey might be able to dig up.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:27 pm 
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I'm just saying, when the story gets published - and it would, what, like two people work for it? Veidt couldn't have infiltrated them - and people subsequently and independently began asking questions about the disappearing heroes, that would be one of the only explanations to turn to.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:36 pm 
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Remember Veidt had Moloch's apartment bugged...

The Veidt Method wrote:
that would be one of the only explanations to turn to.


...and I'm sure there's many more that would surface to muddy the waters. It would be like JFK conspiracy theories. There would be as many explanations as there are armchair analysts.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:50 pm 
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While Rorschach's journal wouldn't concretely prove anything, it would create a mystery, and mysteries have a way of capturing people's imaginations. Especially a mystery involving the most notorious and feared vigilante of their time. So it would follow that conspiracy buffs would buy into Rorschach's (somewhat unclear) claims against Veidt was responsible for something huge. A big clue might be that Rorschach's last entry is dated the day before the New York tragedy. For some, this might be too big of a coincidence. Conspiracy theorists can do a lot more with less than Rorschach's already provided.

As for whether or not it would hit the mainstream, I don't know. I think the point of the last panel is to show that Veidt's perfect world has flaws he couldn't have foreseen — he's the smartest man alive, but not omnipresent. My theory is that something, not Rorschach's journal necessarily, but somethingwould start to crack Veidt's utopia (possibly even Veidt himself).

The Veidt Method wrote:
I'm just saying, when the story gets published - and it would, what, like two people work for it? Veidt couldn't have infiltrated them - and people subsequently and independently began asking questions about the disappearing heroes, that would be one of the only explanations to turn to.


Veidt could easily buy The New Frontiersman and quietly get the story killed. Since he's behind so many companies, he may have owned it already, who knows?


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 Post subject: A pioneer in Davidstown
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:26 am 
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First, half of NYC is dead/missing. Anyone wondering where Dreiberg went will assume he was killed in the event. Obviously Detective Fine's curiosity won't be flaring up.

As for the New Frontiersman... owned by Pioneer Publishing...

Why do you assume it hasn't been owned by Veidt, Inc for decades?

He controls all aspects of the media... even the opposition. He keeps them relegated to the conspiracy whacko level.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:59 am 
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Vynson wrote:
First, half of NYC is dead/missing. Anyone wondering where Dreiberg went will assume he was killed in the event. Obviously Detective Fine's curiosity won't be flaring up.
And if Rorschach suddenly dropped off the face of the earth (reminder: he did), I don't think anyone would be in too big a hurry to pursue him. The detectives, the FBI and God knows who else would probably realize that so many months have gone by since the last Rorschach appearance, breathe a sigh of relief and move on.

Vynson wrote:
Why do you assume it hasn't been owned by Veidt, Inc for decades?

He controls all aspects of the media... even the opposition. He keeps them relegated to the conspiracy whacko level.
How do you figure?

Yes, I know that Veidt has the uncanny ability to observe and process massive amounts of media through TV, news and other media, but how did you conclude that Veidt "controls" the media?

I assume you mean that Veidt manipulates events, as he did with the Doc Manhattan scandal and the charity event. But that's not the same as saying that he owns the New Frontiersman. That's like saying that he owns the NYPD because of Rorschach's capture.

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