WatchmenComicMovie.com Forum


Talk about the Watchmen comic book mini-series and film
It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:26 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:31 am 
Offline
New Frontiersman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:39 am
Posts: 396
Location: North of 49, West of 100
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
but how did you conclude that Veidt "controls" the media?


Why not? His logo is everywhere. He is omnipresent. Like Big Brother, he is WATCHING.... the newsfeeds all the time, and people's personal lives when necessary... come to think of it, HE is the Watchman (googoogajoob).

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
you mean that Veidt manipulates events


Certainly he does, by the virtue that he has so much material and financial control. What he doesn't own, he buys (by direct or indirect methods). If he can't buy it, he eliminates it. He makes sure there is enough positive coverage about him out there to maintain his profile. You think it's a coincidence there's reruns of him on TV doing acrobatic routine soon after Doc Manhattan exhiles himself?

For that matter, are there any coincidences in the entire novel?

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

-Juvenal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:23 pm 
Offline
Thermodynamic Miracle
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:27 pm
Posts: 247
I didn't mean to imply that I thought Veidt owned The New Frontiersman during the course of the book (though it's not impossible — is NF owned by a company that sounds Egyptian?).

I just meant that sometimes higher-ups have a vested interest in the stories that their papers print or don't print. Or worse, they outright and blatantly impose their politics/world view on a media source like Rupert Murdoch does with FOX News.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:17 pm 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
The New Frontiersman is such a small paper that it's an advantage - it's probably under Veidt's radar, and he likely has no idea that Rorschach would have taken such drastic measures in advance, anticipating his own death.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:27 pm 
Offline
New Frontiersman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:39 am
Posts: 396
Location: North of 49, West of 100
NF is not under Veidt's radar... Hector Godfrey gets three seconds of airtime to ask for clemency "on behalf of costumed adventurers" a while Hollis is carving his Halloween pumpkin... to which Doug Roth gets twice as long to respond to.

Admittedly, Veidt has underestimated Rorschach more than once. But he doesn't see Blot Face as much of a threat, and he's easily outmaneouvered Walter time and again. Adrian is a cagey bastard and probably has contingencies in the event of information leaks vis-a-vis the Squid Caper.

I tend to agree with the opinion that the final scene in the novel indicates that Veidt's peace isn't meant to last. I just don't think NF publishing the Journal will be a precipitating event.

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

-Juvenal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:07 pm 
Offline
Alien Squid Monster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 198
Godfrey says something sorta telling to Seymour:

"Oh, no! You got two more pages to fill before you eat, thanks to this Goddamned, ass-kissing accord!"

"I thought your column..."

"Yeah, well, you thought wrong! Nobody's allowed to say bad things about our good ol' buddies the Russains anymore, so bang goes a two-page column!"


Since when does Godfrey censor himself in his paper? "Coked Out Commie Cowards" was the norm, and now he goes throught the trouble of writing a two-page column only to have it censored?

Methinks the papers "owners" are a pretty Big Brother... now more than ever.

_________________
________________________________________________________________________________________
.........................................................................................................SEE YOU, SPACE COWBOY...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:56 am 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
I think that's part of the Soviet-US accord, not a higher-up in the company.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:03 am 
Offline
New Frontiersman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:39 am
Posts: 396
Location: North of 49, West of 100
Bottom line is the Frontiersman is censored... whether it's by Big Brother State or (just as likely) the Mother Veidt Corporation, Godfrey no longer has the latitude to say whatever he wants. The Journal may see the light of day, but there'll be so many counterconspiracies flying around that the only ones actually paying attention to (let alone beleiving) the Seymour & Hector Show will be the tin foil hat crowd.

_________________
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

-Juvenal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:57 am 
Offline
Alien Squid Monster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:45 pm
Posts: 198
The Veidt Method wrote:
I think that's part of the Soviet-US accord, not a higher-up in the company.

Certainly. But the Accord has been around for months. Godfrey writes a two-page column dissing the Soviets, then dismisses it on his own? He certainly has better sense than to start something he knows will be for naught anyway. I mean, that's alot of work and writing that went to waste, and there's always a deadline to meet at the New Frontiersman. Never a moments rest.

My point is that someone must wagged their finger at him (No no no, Mr. Godfrey!)somehow, someway.

_________________
________________________________________________________________________________________
.........................................................................................................SEE YOU, SPACE COWBOY...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:15 pm 
Offline
The Watcher
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:58 am
Posts: 3650
Location: New York
ManOWar wrote:
"Yeah, well, you thought wrong! Nobody's allowed to say bad things about our good ol' buddies the Russains anymore, so bang goes a two-page column!"

I just can't see Veidt buying the Frontiersman. Too much of a rag or him to worry about. I think the mandate to not bad-mouth the Russians must be coming from Government pressure, or that fact that the average reader isn't into Ruskie bashing material after the whole squidzilla incident. Godfrey might be waxing sarcastic when he say's "nobody's allowed," allmost like it's not in fashion anymore, and not commenting that he's being pressured from a real entity.

_________________
Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:29 pm 
Offline
…a puppet who can see the strings.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:42 pm
Posts: 8538
Location: A stronger world
Yeah Veidt isn't exactly Goebbels

_________________
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:25 pm 
Offline
Thermodynamic Miracle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:21 am
Posts: 259
Location: 40th 'N' 7th
Vynson wrote:
First, there are two journals. There is the notebook of "rough notes" that the cops found and were hard pressed to read. In fact, the arrest report described it as "one notebook, pages filled with what is either an elaborate cypher or handwriting too cramped and eccentric to be legible." This explains the two versions of "Dog carcass in alley..." and "Dead dog in alley this morning..."

However, we have no way of knowing if Walter, who obviously is not a very educated man, was capable of expressing all his thoughts in a coherrent manner. And is Seymour going to wade through all his ramblings?

Fair enough Vyn. Who knows if the first notebook is really a journal? I don't think we ever see the cover of it. It's entirely possible that the notes that Walter was found with upon his arrest were just observations written outdoors while investigating. They could have been purposely written in code in case they were lost or confiscated.

After Walter is sprung from jail, he goes back to his apartment, lifts up a floorboard, and grabs his "final draft of journal" (Chapter X, page 6). This journal is titled 1984-1985. He then mails this journal in a perfectly addressed envelope, that is seemlessly read by Seymore (Chapter X, page 24).

The only reason I bring this all up is that I don't like to see Walter made out to be a Neanderthal. I think he's as brilliant as he is quirky.

And by the way, despite the obvious possibility, I don't think we'd ever "See more" of his journal, or at least it amounting to anything of significance.

_________________
Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:30 pm 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
Burgers N Borscht wrote:
I don't think we'd ever "See more" of his journal

I see what you did there...

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:46 pm 
Offline
Alien Squid Monster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:12 pm
Posts: 119
I know it is real blasphemy, but there is a real sequel idea. Whether or not the real diary is thrown away that other journal the cops have can be decyphered one way or another. which means it leaves evidence that could lead back to veit. The ones who know about veits plan whould have to destroy it. Then again if the world knew about veit's plan to start world peace..........whould anyone do anything about it?????

Then again...... the notes could not have possibly been updated. But theyll still know that he investigated Moloch. ( Perhaps Nite Owl can read the notes some how) .........................just a thought


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:04 pm 
Offline
Thermodynamic Miracle
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:21 am
Posts: 259
Location: 40th 'N' 7th
The Veidt Method wrote:
Burgers N Borscht wrote:
I don't think we'd ever "See more" of his journal

I see what you did there...

Not me ... Alan Moore did it quite on purpose, I'm sure (naming the character Seymore).

Mothman wrote:
Then again...... the notes could not have possibly been updated. But theyll still know that he investigated Moloch. ( Perhaps Nite Owl can read the notes some how) .........................just a thought

Chapter X, page 22 is devoted to Walter's last update.

_________________
Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:19 pm 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
I still think one of the most convincing parts of Rorschach's journal to any outsider will be that he cites DAN as the one convinced that Adrian is responsible, and foretells that they will not return - and indeed, all of them will disappear from the public eye.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:15 pm 
Offline
Tired of Earth.
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 8035
Location: Clackamas, OR
Mothman wrote:
I know it is real blasphemy, but there is a real sequel idea. Whether or not the real diary is thrown away that other journal the cops have can be decyphered one way or another. which means it leaves evidence that could lead back to veit. The ones who know about veits plan whould have to destroy it. Then again if the world knew about veit's plan to start world peace..........whould anyone do anything about it?????

Then again...... the notes could not have possibly been updated. But theyll still know that he investigated Moloch. ( Perhaps Nite Owl can read the notes some how) .........................just a thought
You're right. The police could try to decode the journal they confiscated. The problem is that it wouldn't have the all-important latest update because the police have it.

And sure, it leads back to Moloch. But Veidt did such a clean job of pinning Moloch's death on Rorschach that no one would think twice. And even if the police did run a thorough background check, it wouldn't come to anything. Dan was doing quite a thorough investigation, and even he couldn't tie Moloch to Veidt until he was in Veidt's office.

The Veidt Method wrote:
I still think one of the most convincing parts of Rorschach's journal to any outsider will be that he cites DAN as the one convinced that Adrian is responsible, and foretells that they will not return - and indeed, all of them will disappear from the public eye.
I don't see how that's the "one of the most convincing parts" of the journal. Elaborate, please?

_________________
This is truly a madhouse. And I'm the lunatic running it. I've spent three years wondering if I should be proud or ashamed.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:37 pm 
Offline
…a puppet who can see the strings.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:42 pm
Posts: 8538
Location: A stronger world
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
I still think one of the most convincing parts of Rorschach's journal to any outsider will be that he cites DAN as the one convinced that Adrian is responsible, and foretells that they will not return - and indeed, all of them will disappear from the public eye.
I don't see how that's the "one of the most convincing parts" of the journal. Elaborate, please?


CMIIW Meth: Perhaps he means that Dan might be perceived by the public as the most cautious of the lot and therefore, unlike Rorschach who has a reputation of being nuts, Dan is far more acceptable to the public.

OTOH, all of the superheroes were unpopular, weren't they? And I don't recall Nite Owl II being perceived as any better than the rest. Besides, Dan lets Veidt go through with the plan etc - how could anyone know that Rorschach wasn't lying?

_________________
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:04 pm 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
The problem is that it wouldn't have the all-important latest update because the police have it.

The police seized Rorschach's notes up to Moloch's murder, but he made his final notes in the journal he retrieved from his apartment and mailed to the New Frontiersman, right?

And yes, that's why I think Dan is the most convincing part. Yes, he's grouped up with the costumed adventurers, but so were the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan, who were fairly well-perceived. Also, he resigned voluntarily with Laurie. Rorschach's bad rep is mostly due to his continued, illegal vigilantism.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:10 pm 
Offline
…a puppet who can see the strings.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:42 pm
Posts: 8538
Location: A stronger world
The Veidt Method wrote:
so were the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan, who were fairly well-perceived.


hurm but out of them all, one of them was clearly the most popular with the public in '85. All the more reason that the journal wouldn't be taken well

_________________
Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rorschach's Journal
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:16 pm 
Offline
A brother to dragons.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:05 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Sarasota, FL
AYBGerrardo wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
so were the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan, who were fairly well-perceived.


hurm but out of them all, one of them was clearly the most popular with the public in '85. All the more reason that the journal wouldn't be taken well

But the injection of a rational opinion into what would otherwise be a 'madman's' journal might spark enough interest for an investigation.

_________________
.
.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: watchmen_fan_1964 and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.106s | 12 Queries | GZIP : Off ]