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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:05 am 
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A while back (sorry I can't find the exact post or recall who wrote it), someone raised the issue of why Dr. Manhattan killed Rorschach. Why would Dr. Manhattan defend Veidt's utopia, our friend reasoned, if Dr. Manhattan was of a neutral mind about the whole thing?

I've been turning this over in my head for a while and I can't seem to find an answer. By murdering Rorschach, did Dr. Manhattan indirectly "condone" Veidt's actions? If he had let Rorschach go, would that be seen as "condemning" the New York plot? What action would best suit Dr. Manhattan's statement that he neither condemned nor condoned the peace by fake alien invasion?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:16 am 
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Here ya go. It was in the Rorschach thread.

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Janx wrote:
3. The Doc told Veidt he neither condemned nor condoned his actions. If that were really true -- especially considering what he tells him later -- he would just walk away without doing anything at all. Nothing to stop the plan; nothing to protect the plan.
In two years of moderating this forum, I've seen all kinds of interpretations and questions about the ending. I've seen (more than any sane man should) conundrums on the subject resolved and reasoned over. But this one is new to me.

From the gut, I'd say that Dr. Manhattan was merely saying that to assuage whatever guilt Ozymandias had, much as he did when he neglected to tell Veidt about Rorschach's murder. But honestly, I don't know.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:19 am 
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Hmm there are a few approaches that can/need to be made on this topic.

1. Mars. On Mars, Osterman has a revelation and feels that if one life is worth saving because of a recently discovered oddity "thermodynamic miracle", then the same can be said for any person. Therefore, he regains interest in life.

2. That last sentence. Dr. Manhattan regains interest in life ("Yes, I think I'll create some"). Not the human race. The only human aspect is simply Laurie and the revelation of the Comedian. After returning to Earth, an entirely different situation is presented: the bad guys win. While Manhattan still holds interest in life, this destroyed utopia has no effect on him whatsoever. Here we can still assume Manhattan in a neutral position, neither condoning or condemning. Although Rorschach was killed to prevent the release of Veidt's plan, at the same time Manhattan is not on Veidt's side. Still neutral. Therefore, Manhattan leaves. Big WTF? moment to end the show lol. Curtains.

IDK, that's just my take on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:28 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Why would Dr. Manhattan defend Veidt's utopia, our friend reasoned, if Dr. Manhattan was of a neutral mind about the whole thing?


I don't think it's Veidt's utopia that Jon is defending, rather it's the peace, however temporary, that was seemingly achieved as a result of Veidt's plot. I think Jon is neutral to the motives behind the plot and it's lack of morality, but at that point what's done is done. He has agreed to keep quiet about it. He knows that Rorschach could potentially spoil things, so he tries to stop him, and kills him somewhat reluctantly.

Of course to Jon all is happening simultaneously, his responses and his actions.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:43 am 
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t3cii wrote:
Of course to Jon all is happening simultaneously, his responses and his actions.

Though throughout this passgae of the GN, Doc is experiencing major disruptions in his perceptions due to being on Ground Zero of the big squid-off, and having just had himself throughly microwaved. Maybe he just meant to send Rorschach to Mars, but got his settings wrong...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:31 am 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:05 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
Maybe he just meant to send Rorschach to Mars, but got his settings wrong...


Like the time I put a muffin in the microwave and set it for 2 minutes instead of 20 seconds, thus burning the muffin? Hmmm..

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:02 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
Mister Pain wrote:
Maybe he just meant to send Rorschach to Mars, but got his settings wrong...


Like the time I put a muffin in the microwave and set it for 2 minutes instead of 20 seconds, thus burning the muffin? Hmmm..

EXACTLY!
If you were Jon, you would have known you were gonna burn something in the microwave, but not until it happened did you realise it was muffin! Even then, you would have been powerless to stop yourself burning it.

Jon doesn't know for sure why he killed Rorschach, just that he had to so that things would play out the way they were supposed to. Remember, he's just a puppet that can see the strings, and due to tachyon interference, his view of the strings is at that point fairly messed up.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:28 pm 
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I'd never thought about it, but now it is a big mind fuck. Because when Rorschach says 'must protect VEIDT'S new utopia' Dr. Manhattan doesn't say, 'No, I'm blah blah blah.' He allows Roraschach to die thinking that his death is just to protect Veidt.

But why would Jon care what happened to Veidt, if some one is truly nuetral they don't wipe out another person's enemies so their ideals will dictate the world's.

That's be like the Swiss attackng people while claiming nuetrality, but by only attacking one side they are clearly on the other.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:43 am 
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I think I was the one who brought this question up, and I have also thought a lot about it. I have never written more about it in the Rorschach thread, coz I haven't come to a conclusion other than this:
Mister Pain wrote:
Jon doesn't know for sure why he killed Rorschach, just that he had to so that things would play out the way they were supposed to. Remember, he's just a puppet that can see the strings (...)

The person holding the strings in this case is Alan Moore. Rorschach had to die in the end, and that's why the Doc killed him. I see no other reason.
(Veidt himself didn't regard him as a threat, and rightly so (imo). Insane, a criminal, a fugitive out of prison...
Sure, some would have believed him, but they would have been ridiculed as nutty conspiracy theorists.)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:40 pm 
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DCR wrote:
I think I was the one who brought this question up, and I have also thought a lot about it. I have never written more about it in the Rorschach thread, coz I haven't come to a conclusion other than this:
Mister Pain wrote:
Jon doesn't know for sure why he killed Rorschach, just that he had to so that things would play out the way they were supposed to. Remember, he's just a puppet that can see the strings (...)

The person holding the strings in this case is Alan Moore. Rorschach had to die in the end, and that's why the Doc killed him. I see no other reason.
(Veidt himself didn't regard him as a threat, and rightly so (imo). Insane, a criminal, a fugitive out of prison...
Sure, some would have believed him, but they would have been ridiculed as nutty conspiracy theorists.)


Except. that can't be a reason why Manhattan killed Rorschach. He doesn't believe anyone is controlling the strings. There is still a reason he killed Rorschach, it's just that he knew about it already beforehand.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:44 pm 
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I think that Manhattan killed Rorschach for the reasons that we all already thought beforehand.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:20 am 
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I don't see him killing Rorschach as condoning what Adrian has done. I ultimately believe he does it because Rorschach wants to die. He doesn't go out there to protect Veidt's utopia because he ultimately knows the peace won't last(nothing ever ends) and even mentions he's not concerned with human affairs. He goes out there to put Rorschach out of his misery because he knows he can't live in a world where everything isn't black and white.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:30 am 
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Not to mention, you know, Rorschach screaming "DO IT!"


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:58 am 
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Yeah, woulda been just like Laurie back in the ol' military complex. Blue guy gets a shouted command, blue guy jumps! Except in thiose instances it's "Can you do the laundry, wash the dishes, and massage my ass right now?.... Jon...? ...DO IT!!!"

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:45 pm 
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^^^ You know, that's kind of an interesting tangent-y thing...Isn't it weird that out of anybody, it seems like Laurie has the most difficulty in getting Jon to do something?

"Let's go out to eat."
"Nah, I wanna finish this techthingiealzyer."

"Please stop the world from ending."
"Nah, I don't feel like it."


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:46 pm 
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You don't particularly have to see Doc's killing of Rorschach to be him condoning Veidt's plan. Just that he sees some value in making sure, now that Veidt's plan has been carried out and can't be undone, that it won't have been in vain.


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