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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:39 am 
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I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering about it.

Okay, so the heroes can't reveal Ozymandias's plot without making things worse.

1) Why didn't they just kill him? It would still keep the plot a secret, but he wouldn't go away unpunished.

2) If they aren't going to kill him, why didn't Laurie and Dan ask him to clear their names so they wouldn't have to go on the run with fake identities?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:07 am 
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Felis wrote:
1) Why didn't they just kill him? It would still keep the plot a secret, but he wouldn't go away unpunished.

A very good question. On the surface, that would be illogical. I'm pretty sure there'd be a large-scale investigation into the murder of such a famous man, even despite the obsessive hunt for aliens that would ensue.
And, well, when they look around Karnak I'm sure they'd find some interesting things...

Further, Ozymandias' plot resembles the allegation that Nero burnt Rome in the dream of re-creating it. It's questionable whether Ozy (or any man) should be in the position to try to create a utopia, but that's the long term purpose of his plan and he's the only one that can do it. It'd be objectively pointless and damaging to kill him at this of all points.

The only reason any of them might have wanted to kill Ozymandias now would be for revenge or some twisted idea of justice. You'd think Rorschach would fit the bill, but even he makes no attempt to attack Veidt once he knows what he's done. That forms a significant part of his arc, which is too complex to discuss here, but there's plenty that's been said about it elsewhere on the forum.
Laurie, of course, attempts to kill Veidt - she doesn't know why he's killed so many people in New York, only that it was him. And now it looks like he's killed Jon. He's an asshole. He's got to die. The attempt was of course based on emotion.

Some might argue that the Comedian, knowing of Veidt's plan, attempted to kill him just before the narrative began. It'd have been interesting to see, had the Comedian gained the upper hand in their first, in such a position that, say, he has a gun to Veidt's head - would he have pulled the trigger?
Personally I don't think so.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:21 am 
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i just think that none of them felt like they had the right to kill him, especially since he never tried killing them, besides, none of them had both means and inclination neither laurie or dan are the kind of people that would kill someone, there's no way that rorschach could kill him, and Jon agreed with the outcome, so there was noone to kill him in the end.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:38 am 
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AvatarIII wrote:
especially since he never tried killing them

Well.... Jon...

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:13 am 
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Felis wrote:
1) Why didn't they just kill him? It would still keep the plot a secret, but he wouldn't go away unpunished.
First of all, AYB pretty much had the measure of it. Veidt is one of the wealthiest and most famous men in the world, so his murder and/or disappearance would certainly have been noticed. If the subsequent investigation didn't yield his corpse or his killers then the investigation into his assets may have uncovered the squid plot, just as it did for Nite Owl and Rorschach.

Secondly, your post seems to imply that ending the Cold War and creating world peace is worthy of punishment. This is a completely different debate, but it's definitely one of Watchmen's great ambiguities.

Felis wrote:
2) If they aren't going to kill him, why didn't Laurie and Dan ask him to clear their names so they wouldn't have to go on the run with fake identities?
Ozymandias is powerful, but he has no place in any government. He doesn't have the power to acquit or pardon anyone.

Also, an entire squadron of cops and detectives raided Dan's house as well as the Owl's Nest. Every one of those men knew that Dreiberg was Nite Owl and they knew that Nite Owl was behind the prison break. Even if we assume that the newspapers didn't make both revelations known nationwide, that's still an awful lot of witnesses to hush and/or disappear so the cover-up would work.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Secondly, your post seems to imply that ending the Cold War and creating world peace is worthy of punishment. This is a completely different debate, but it's definitely one of Watchmen's great ambiguities.


Good answer, but people usually talk about the part about half of New York being killed :P !

And by the way, Veidt did not go unpunished, the guilt of what he did will eventually drive him insane.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:43 am 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:
especially since he never tried killing them

Well.... Jon...

i don't think veidt expected the intrinsic field subtracter to do anything more to on than slow him down, hopefully for longer than the couple of minutes that it actually did slow him down by.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:50 am 
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AvatarIII wrote:
AYBGerrardo wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:
especially since he never tried killing them

Well.... Jon...

i don't think veidt expected the intrinsic field subtracter to do anything more to on than slow him down, hopefully for longer than the couple of minutes that it actually did slow him down by.

I'm pretty sure that he expected some death to go on. That was the impression I got.

feliciano182 wrote:
And by the way, Veidt did not go unpunished, the guilt of what he did will eventually drive him insane.

Unless, ya'know, he was the type of person who would be willing to kill half of New York in the first place :P !

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:52 am 
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AvatarIII wrote:
i don't think veidt expected the intrinsic field subtracter to do anything more to on than slow him down, hopefully for longer than the couple of minutes that it actually did slow him down by.


I actually thought quite the opposite, that Veidt was doing the peanut butter jelly dance because he thought he had killed Jon.

Is it JOHN ? or JON ?

Godziller66 wrote:
Unless, ya'know, he was the type of person who would be willing to kill half of New York in the first place :P !


*pats Godziller in the head*

Remember the final conversation between Manhattan and Veidt ? remember Veidt turning his head and looking afraid ? even the smartest man in the world had doubts about what he did.

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Last edited by feliciano182 on Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:53 am 
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Jon.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:04 am 
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Veidt not only intended to kill Jon, he believed he had pulled it off. He says: "Do you know, I really wasn't sure that would work"*. When Jon comes back, he strongly criticises Veidt for having thought that.
Let's not be like Adrian and forget that Jon is an extremely powerful figure - as far as Veidt is concerned, whether or not Jon would want to destroy Veidt's work, he's the one most capable of it. As the biggest threat he must be removed. Add in Veidt's obsession with being the one true ubermensch and you've got a lot of motive.

*(Off-topic: I've just realised, it's pretty revealing how Veidt continues talking to himself where previously he would address Bubastis or, well, dead servants...)

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Qu'est-ce que C'est
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Felis wrote:
Why didn't they just kill him? It would still keep the plot a secret, but he wouldn't go away unpunished?


Laurie and Dan aren't cold-blooded killers. Rorschach was, on occasion, but it was clear that he wasn't up to the task of even subduing Adrian, let alone something as difficult as killing him.

Blake seemed to enjoy killing, but he was already dead. Jon didn't care enough anymore to bother.

The only other established murderer, the only other character that murdered time and again and really seemed to enjoy it (XI-26-2) was Adrian himself, and suicide just doesn't seem his style. Homicide, yes, the dude racks up quite a body count even before he throws his squid-bomb at New York. But suicide? No way.


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 Post subject: Re: Qu'est-ce que C'est
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:10 pm 
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Broken Finger wrote:
The only other established murderer, the only other character that murdered time and again and really seemed to enjoy it (XI-26-2) was Adrian himself, and suicide just doesn't seem his style. Homicide, yes, the dude racks up quite a body count even before he throws his squid-bomb at New York. But suicide? No way.


Very interesting, makes me question what were the specific moral guidelines of Ozymandias.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:42 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Very interesting, makes me question what were the specific moral guidelines of Ozymandias.


"Do whatever the hell you want, as long as it can be properly rationalized and kept secret" about covers it, I think.

Felis wrote:
Why didn't they just kill him?


You know, even if killing Veidt had occurred to anyone at Karnak that day, it would have been impossible to do so for any of them except Jon, who, again, clearly didn't care or really even want to be there anymore. Adrian had just spent a good portion of Chapter XI batting Rorschach and Dan around without even working up a light sweat and, when shot at, just caught the bullet and kicked the shooter in the stomach.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:09 am 
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Broken Finger wrote:
feliciano182 wrote:
Very interesting, makes me question what were the specific moral guidelines of Ozymandias.


"Do whatever the hell you want, as long as it can be properly rationalized and kept secret" about covers it, I think.


Pretty much, pretty much :lol:

I always found the concept of Ozymandias to be incredibly interesting, yet no one seems to make a lot of mention of it, certainly not as much the blue dick or as Randschach's mask.

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