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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:06 pm 
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Seemore wrote:
I think that the act of people turning their heads the other way when faced with that crime is probably what drove Kovacs to turn Vigilante. It's just incidental that it was a female victim but gave him the excuse for his mask. Kovacs had an awful upbringing because people turned their heads the other way. The bully's dad knew of Sylvia Kovac's lifestyle and I'm sure other people did too, but of course they chose to do nothing to save young Walter until he rebelled and then the authorities took notice. Maybe each potential victim he sees could be seen as his young self, and so his brutality is enhanced with this personal connection coupled with revenge on his mother's actions towards him? When faced with Blair Roche this personal connection -child being abused. Didn't like it. personal reasons - his failure to save her might have been the death of Walter and of course with the death of the young, weak Walter, came another personality, one that couldn't be swayed or bullied and one that wasn't so 'soft'.

It's interesting you mentioned Laurie's hand dropping. I remember on Mars Dr. Manhattan said (about the future) that he could see him killing someone in the snow, identity unknown. When in Karnak, having just seen the devastation of NY and the moral checkmate Laurie was in, there may have been a small part of her that remembered Jon's words, but not enough for her to be totally aware of what that meant. Saying that, Nite-Owl's whole body slumps at his failure to stop his friend.

Been a bit off-topic there, but I think Anti-sexual fits Rorschach quite nicely. :)


Laurie would have to have figured out that Jon meant Rorschach, eventually. I never thought of that. Also, though the term is new to me, I think anti-sexual is the best one anyone's suggested so far as a description of Rorschach's attitude. [Nice one, BnB.] The idea of Kovacs transferring his young self onto the kidnapped girl is unavoidable, and the idea of the death of his old persona matching the death of that girl is extremely persuasive. Laurie and Dan are, despite the costumes, probably the most sexually normal of all the main characters. Laurie sobs that she doesn't know anyone but superheroes, so that limits her field. Veidt's calendar has him asking her out after the squid, so maybe he also sees how few options the masks have. Dan sees Rorschach having no one but superheroes in his life, but in his own group his options for a relationship are dismal.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:14 pm 
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behemoth wrote:
Veidt's calendar has him asking her out after the squid, so maybe he also sees how few options the masks have. Dan sees Rorschach having no one but superheroes in his life, but in his own group his options for a relationship are dismal.


Oh wow...I'd never gleaned that from the "Call Laurie" marked on his calendar...somehow I'd assumed that was Dan's stuff mixed in with Veidt's (like on Archie or something.) So Veidt was going to manipulate Jon into leaving and then make a move on Laurie? :shock:

On the other hand, why I am surprised at this? :roll: It's true that yes, their scope is somewhat limited since they as super-heroes pretty much associate just with each other...on the other hand, WHAT AN ASSHOLE! LOL.

Going back to the subject of Rorschach...I think the person who referred to him as a "Chevalier" is right-on, and not only for the reasons given. Even if he were to fall for someone, participation in the physical "act" might not even occur to him, at least consciously. He'd probably have a series of disturbing dreams about them or something, but he'd probably try and tell himself his feelings were just those of intense friendship (and as he is unused to close relations with people, how would he know any better?) It would probably *at most* end up resembling "courtly love" (him admitting his feelings maybe to himself, but with the knowledge that consummation of "the act" is impossible, due to his antipathy towards sex.)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:01 pm 
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I think Veidt was definitely going to move in on that. The question is, did he figure out the Comedian was her father, and would he have mentioned that he "avenged" her mother by killing him? By then, Laurie may have already forgiven Blake. When she leaves with Dan at Karnak, Veidt doesn't even seem to notice. It's a weird situation.
I think the kind of girl who Rorschach would end up with would have to be extroverted to make up for his introversion, and she'd wind up doing most of the work in the relationship.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:20 pm 
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behemoth wrote:
I think the kind of girl who Rorschach would end up with would have to be extroverted to make up for his introversion, and she'd wind up doing most of the work in the relationship.


Someone mention me? :P

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
behemoth wrote:
I think the kind of girl who Rorschach would end up with would have to be extroverted to make up for his introversion, and she'd wind up doing most of the work in the relationship.


Someone mention me? :P



:D Actually (though I'm sure people will start throwing shoes at me for admitting this) I'm a fan of the idea of Rorschach/Laurie, though it would be very interesting to see how something like that would end up occurring. I mean, they don't seem to like each other on the surface, they share very different views on things, but....but. It's obvious he at least respects her, and though she doth protest much, she *did* go along with the jailbreak, though she had strong reservations about doing so. :? Most likely they'd have ended up as friends more than anything else once they got past their differences.

Having said that...if they did somehow end up together, I could totally see her having to do all of the actual work. Here's a guy who has had next to no experience with even a normal friendship beyond his partnership with Dan, who is grim and withdrawn at the best of times, and who has a lifetime of psychological baggage that has driven him over the edge. It would take a lot to draw him out, and it would take some pretty weird circumstances for her to want to do so. Then there's the fact that she is a fan of "physical relations" and well, he isn't. And she's already been with a guy who's spacey and withdrawn for nearly twenty years...

That hasn't stopped some of us from thinking, "what if..."

/Takes off shipping hat, hides behind blast shields.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:37 pm 
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numb3r5ev3n wrote:
And she's already been with a guy who's spacey and withdrawn for nearly twenty years...


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Oh, and sorry to break this to you, but Rorschach's dead. And I don't think Laurie particularly cares.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:01 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
numb3r5ev3n wrote:
And she's already been with a guy who's spacey and withdrawn for nearly twenty years...


Image

Oh, and sorry to break this to you, but Rorschach's dead. And I don't think Laurie particularly cares.


LOL, I was going off on a weird "what-if" tangent. I know it's non-canon, not feasible, an abomination against The Lord Our Jon, and that I should don sackcloth and abase myself before Alan Moore's Almighty Beard and/or the Sockpuppet god Glycon for the sin of Heresy. It doesn't stop me from thinking about these kinds of things. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:59 am 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
behemoth wrote:
I think the kind of girl who Rorschach would end up with would have to be extroverted to make up for his introversion, and she'd wind up doing most of the work in the relationship.


Someone mention me? :P


I'll tell Rorschach you like him if you tell Cheetara I'm cool.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:12 am 
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behemoth wrote:
Lady_Rorschach wrote:
behemoth wrote:
I think the kind of girl who Rorschach would end up with would have to be extroverted to make up for his introversion, and she'd wind up doing most of the work in the relationship.


Someone mention me? :P


I'll tell Rorschach you like him if you tell Cheetara I'm cool.

:shock: Okay, now we've gone too far off-track.

Getting back to the first quotation, I can't imagine Rorschach allowing anyone to speak or act on his behalf.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:53 pm 
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I always thought this scene was odd...

I really didn't notice it until the motion comic, but he just stands there. Watching the naked lady in the window. For probably a few minutes at least.

Image

Oh Rorschach, you're not well adjusted at all, are you? :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:57 am 
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Rorschach is almost certainly a virgin.
His two handshakes with Nite-Owl appear to be the sum total of non-violent human contact he has ever had.

http://thefishshow.com/Archive/WM%20UM.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:50 am 
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Avenging World wrote:
Rorschach is almost certainly a virgin.
His two handshakes with Nite-Owl appear to be the sum total of non-violent human contact he has ever had.


It's sad, but you are probably right.

http://thefishshow.com/Archive/WM%20UM.htm

Reading through this site right now. I used to get into debates with people over occult symbolism in literature and films all the time. I think in most cases people don't even know they are putting things like that in there. The symbolism is probably just in their subconscious, and it just comes out in their work - but with Alan Moore, you never know. Just look at Promethea. :D All of that was very deliberate.

(Haha now we're off topic again.)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:22 pm 
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*Nods* I agree with Quite a few of you.

It dosen't really matter what sexuality Ror has...he just think's Sex is bad and disgraceful. So yeah odds are he died a virgin, but dispite that, he could be gay....he could be Bi....he could be straight. I know for certian he's probably an A-sexual though.

Personally I think he MAY be an A-sexual Homosexual. He doesn't like woman and he really only admires men. Often times dispite being very polite to woman, he really shows no real attraction to them, well sans his akward wet dream. In a few scenes you see him looking at Doctor Manhattans body and such. He probably does have some sexual feelings, but odds are he loaths himself for it and try's to block them out, because in his mind only scum like his mother and landlady have sex.

In my mind he has probably masturbated but odd's are has never had REAL sex...because I think even though he hates sex...he still has hormones that would trigger sexual reactions. When he has these thought's he believes he is lower then scum, he hates himself and is confused on a lot of his feelings.

As for his relationship with Dan, it is probably more then friendship but not sexual. He doe's care about Dan because well, Dan is the only person who has ever really been willing to be his friend. Also since he is not an emotional person he admires Dan's intelligence and sence of Justice. You can tell he really cares for Dan when he stops him from hurting one of the knot tops and attempts to comfort him (albiet slightly twistedly) after Hollis Masons murder. And also Dan is the only person he really touches in a non violent way through out the entire novel dispite that one scene with the older Bernie when he is Walter Kovaks.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Here is my argument that Rorschach is neither homosexual nor asexual. I believe he is antisexual with underlying genophobia. Here are some definitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisexualism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genophobia

Let's look at VI.10.1
Image

Would a homosexual think it was unpleasant to handle female clothing? No, he'd say it's "faaabulous!" (OK, I'm semi-apologetic for bringing up that stereotype). Would someone who is asexual have that look of horror on their face when seeing women's undergarments? No, they wouldn't care.


V.11.5
Image

It's is much more likely that someone who is antisexual, rather than homosexual or asexual, not like this silhouette and find it haunted. I'm also willing to believe the argument that this panel is not about references to sex but that of nuclear catastrophe.


VIII.21.1
Image

Do you think Walter doesn't like her uniform because he's homosexual and her shoes don't match her belt? (OK, another stereotype cheep-shot). If's he's asexual, why would it even bother him? He doesn't like it because it's sexy.


X.10.1-3
Image

These are the handshake panels. I'm sticking to my previous comments: "I don't ever recall seeing as big a smile on Rorschach's blotted face than in that panel. I could interpret this as Walter being so happy that he has shared an emotional moment with his only friend in the world. He tightens his coat, holding his hand over his heart, feeling a cozy, happy, heart-felt moment."


Here's the last few sentences from Walter's account of his Dream, 5/27/63:
"...Their hands were growing into each other as well, but they had all four legs free and they were sort of dancing sideways towards me down the dark hall like a crab, and there was something tripping 'em up, wrapped around their feet, and I looked down and I saw it was trousers and underwear and stuff. They were coming towards me, and then I woke up. I had feelings when I woke up. Dirty feelings, thoughts and stuff. The dream it sort of upset me, physically. I couldn't help it. I feel bad just talking about it."

So do you think this dream and what it represents would lend more to homosexuality, asexuality, or antisexuality with genophobia?

I'll reiterate a previous comment I had:
"For Rorschach, there is good, and there is evil. Guess which side sex is going to fall on?

sex=something mommy did with stranger, followed by backhand to the face and being called little shit.
sex=something mommy does that's against the law
unlawful=evil
mommy=evil
Therefore, sex=evil

Rorschach isn't apathetic to sex -- he loathes it. What does he say when he hears his mother was killed? Shucks? So what? Oh? No -- he says "Good." Rorschach, who is not a eunic, wants no part of sex, for it would corupt him."


As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."

Okay....I know I just said a bunch of stuff up there but I really love your theory too. Sex just equals bad for him...but he does care about Daniel in a strictly friendly way.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:03 am 
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numb3r5ev3n wrote:
I always thought this scene was odd...

I really didn't notice it until the motion comic, but he just stands there. Watching the naked lady in the window. For probably a few minutes at least.

Image

Oh Rorschach, you're not well adjusted at all, are you? :roll:

That scene has ALWAYS bothered me.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:20 am 
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numb3r5ev3n wrote:
I always thought this scene was odd...

I really didn't notice it until the motion comic, but he just stands there. Watching the naked lady in the window. For probably a few minutes at least.

Image

Oh Rorschach, you're not well adjusted at all, are you? :roll:



I always thought it was Rorschach hanging back so as not to be spotted by anyone. He's still wanted by the police as a murderer remember and all it takes is one calll to get the cops scouring the area. It just happens that the person looking out of the window is a naked woman . Once she turns away he begins to move on. Had she have been doing the ironing, Rorschach would be buggered and would have to make a detour. However, something as evil as ironing has yet to be recognised within the constraints of the comic world and I'm sure it would be less fun to draw for Gibbons :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:07 am 
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Seemore wrote:
I always thought it was Rorschach hanging back so as not to be spotted by anyone. He's still wanted by the police as a murderer remember and all it takes is one calll to get the cops scouring the area. It just happens that the person looking out of the window is a naked woman . Once she turns away he begins to move on. Had she have been doing the ironing, Rorschach would be buggered and would have to make a detour. However, something as evil as ironing has yet to be recognised within the constraints of the comic world and I'm sure it would be less fun to draw for Gibbons :)


I see it as sort of expressing how alone he is by contrast. He looks away when the guy comes up and embraces the lady in the window, who then pulls the curtains shut. I think that part of him realizes what he's given up (normal life, human companionship, and love) in choosing to pursue the path that he has in his life, which has isolated and alienated himself from almost everyone. While it could be argued that his messed-up childhood and aversion to sex also plays a huge role in this, I don't doubt he's aware that he's missing out somehow in "normal" human relations.

In a way, I think it's also foreshadowing the scene where he walks out of Adrian's lair, all alone, as Dan and Laurie are embracing in the pool room. He always ends up alone, isolated by his beliefs and unwillingness to compromise (or by his friends' unwillingness to stick by their guns and their buddy, take your pick.)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:06 am 
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I think his relationship with sexuality is the same as with everything else and Moore couldn't say it better: "Rorschach has a king size death wish."

Why can't he see the couple? Because he doesn't want to be there, he doesn't want to be anywhere, so he just doesn't care about being in a bar full of bad types that could easily kill him with a shot in the head, or he doesn't care about being in prison with all those prisoners. Basically Rorschach was a former naive and innocent child to the extreme opposite latter, by all the trauma he went trough with all the people he had a relationship with, beginning with his mother.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:38 am 
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dude first off its a legit question but not a necessary one-i mean he obviously has trust issues because of his childhood he doesn't have any relationships with women because well...just look at him


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:19 am 
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Ok, I found it. Buried deep down on page 10 of the forum. But this horse is not dead yet, and as Alea iacta est said: Christmas is coming—perfect time to resurrect this thread. (Perhaps Easter would be even better, but — RRAAAARRL!)

*cough*


Actually I don't have so much to say on the issue, coz my opinion has already been voiced by others in this really long thread.
He is not asexual.
He is not gay.
He is in deep denial. Not about wanting a man, but about wanting a woman.

One thing I am not decided about is his sadism. Is it there? Is it a valve* for his libido?
Or is there no sadism, only extreme pragmatism and rage?


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