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PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Please keep in mind that I have not read every post on this thread, but here is my two cents:

I think it's highly possible that Rorschach is either asexual or a self-hating homosexual. His complete hatred for homosexuality strikes me as a bit suspect ("victim of her own indecent lifestyle", "Adrian Veidt - possible homosexual"), and his clingy jealous BF relationship with Daniel shows the bitterness that he felt when they broke up as a team; his heartache that Daniel wouldn't initially bring retribution to the "mask killer", the regret for insulting Daniel he felt when he touched his arm...all of these point to some kind of underlying homosexuality.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:53 pm 
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minuto27 wrote:
Please keep in mind that I have not read every post on this thread, but here is my two cents:

I think it's highly possible that Rorschach is either asexual or a self-hating homosexual. His complete hatred for homosexuality strikes me as a bit suspect ("victim of her own indecent lifestyle", "Adrian Veidt - possible homosexual"), and his clingy jealous BF relationship with Daniel shows the bitterness that he felt when they broke up as a team; his heartache that Daniel wouldn't initially bring retribution to the "mask killer", the regret for insulting Daniel he felt when he touched his arm...all of these point to some kind of underlying homosexuality.


Similarly though, he's equally scathing with women; he targets women who flaunt their sexuality too. If you're saying that his excessive hatred for homosexuality points to some repressed homosexuality, could it be that his excessive hatred for feminine sexuality points to repressed general sexual desire too? Of course, I am not saying that prostitutes constitutes feminine sexuality (how Rorschach worthy would that statement be), although they are an aspect of it; but what I'm trying to say is, I don't actually think that his excessive hatred towards homosexuality necessarily points to him being homosexual. However, just as he abhors prostitution as being a manifestation of sexual indecency, immorality, vice, he views homosexuality in the same way-he doesn't yearn for it, he hates it as something that he perceives to be immoral and indecent. Not saying he's definitely not, just saying that I think that excessive hatred is just an overspill of his hard-line, ineffable moral compass-something is either good or bad, black or white; he hates, or he reveres.

He clearly has a problem with sexuality as a whole (I would like to request a prize for understatement of the century for that please). I think he denies he feels any at all. Sadism? I never really saw him as sadist, although it makes sense that it'd be the flip-side of what I always saw in him-I actually always thought that his iron grip over himself and the denying of any luxuries-material or emotional-reflected his need to control any sexual desire he has-control, repression, denial. Couple that with a few maniac outbursts of brutality and bloodshed and that's one raging libido he's wrestling with in there somewhere....

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:20 am 
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I think that Rorschach might have an easier time at lashing out at women than guys. He tends to live his life as if it were the 1950s--a time when women in the workplace was becoming a more common sight and we were gradually claiming more independence outside the kitchen and home. Given Rorschach's childhood, his mother was nothing like the stereotypical "good American woman" of the time--she was the exact opposite! As decades went by and women were becoming even more free, thank you Sexual Revolution, this must have terrified him.

In getting a little off-topic, I couldn't help but compare Rorschach to the Leader in V For Vendetta...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:49 am 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
I think that Rorschach might have an easier time at lashing out at women than guys. He tends to live his life as if it were the 1950s--a time when women in the workplace was becoming a more common sight and we were gradually claiming more independence outside the kitchen and home. Given Rorschach's childhood, his mother was nothing like the stereotypical "good American woman" of the time--she was the exact opposite! As decades went by and women were becoming even more free, thank you Sexual Revolution, this must have terrified him.

In getting a little off-topic, I couldn't help but compare Rorschach to the Leader in V For Vendetta...


Definitely agree. Fear and hatred come easily to him when it comes to sexuality-I will always remember his line about "American love" and how they "don't make it anymore", which ties in with your points about the "good American woman". For Rorschach things should be a set way, and if people follow this moral standard, then they are decent, good Americans. Obviously his strict moral compass means virtually no-one passes his morality test, something which would anger and terrify him. Applied to sexuality, he obviously has some virtuous high standard for it that no-one achieves, resulting in him being terrified of falling to the degeneracy himself, and terrified of the women that he (most likely) secretly desires deep down inside that iron grip he thinks he has over himself.

I see what you're getting at in comparing him to the Leader. That would also tie in with the idea that his violent punishment is linked to him displacing his sexual desire onto something he feels comfortable with, something black or white.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:49 am 
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Question: When (in the book) does RS lash out especially at women?
Coz I don't see that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:26 pm 
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DCR wrote:
Question: When (in the book) does RS lash out especially at women?
Coz I don't see that.


Never! He refuses to touch women at all, probably because he's afraid of the emotions that would build up.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:41 pm 
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Lady_Rorschach wrote:
He refuses to touch women at all, probably because he's afraid of the emotions that would build up.

Hm. That's what I'm seeing, too.
But, just to get this clear, there is not one incident in the book where he refuses to touch a woman.
Though, yea, handling their clothes makes him uncomfortable.

There is one scene with him stopping in his track to look at a naked woman, though. Until she embraces her lover, then he moves on. So, what I am seeing in (projecting onto) this special Rorschach test is utter loneliness. That's at the bottom of him, imo.

I think the 'Hiroshima-lovers' haunt him not because he fears the nukes, but because they show two people who are together.




I am still thinking about the sadism. It is there, but he doesn't really seem to enjoy it...
His violence seems so matter-of-factly (I am really lacking the vocabulary here), erm, sudden, intense, and not more than necessary. (Oh, well. Of course more, but not longer than necessary.)
The only incident which we see, in the book, with him losing it is when he's a kid and get's bullied.
Even with Grice he doesn't lose it.
Or yea, he does, with the dogs. And then, he says, he became Rorschach.

Rorschach is a control-freak.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:09 am 
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[/quote]

There is one scene with him stopping in his track to look at a naked woman, though. Until she embraces her lover, then he moves on. So, what I am seeing in (projecting onto) this special Rorschach test is utter loneliness. That's at the bottom of him, imo.

I think the 'Hiroshima-lovers' haunt him not because he fears the nukes, but because they show two people who are together.

Rorschach is a control-freak.

<|8)[/quote]

Absolutely. To quote Ms Proulx, love is a force of nature, or desire, or the drive to attach yourself to someone. It can't really be completely controlled. Walter is driven to attempt to use the construct of Rorschach to completely control all his desires, but ultimately, he'll always have that utter loneliness, because I don't think you can completely kill off the desire to be with someone, not necessarily sexually, but to have an intimacy with someone. Especially due to the fact that his entire childhood was lacking in any warmth or affection. I also thought that about the Hiroshima-lovers, and something about the fact that they are together even as the bomb is dropped shows how for them, love conquers all. Walter sees that and secretly yearns for it, but Rorschach transforms it into something he can legitimately fear-fear of the weapon, not fear of the human intimacy.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:37 am 
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Wish I had found this topic sooner; maybe nobody will ever read this!

For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts:

The main characters of Watchmen seem to represent an individual ‘sexual archetype’ (for want of a better word). Obviously, this is just my interpretation:

The Comedian – The Sexual Misogynist; simply takes what he wants (by force or by charm) and has no regard for women other than as sex objects (apart from Sally, eventually).

NightOwl II – The Sexual Naïf; Up until his ‘cure by costume’, Dan seems to be sexually awkward and inexperienced, perhaps even a little bit intimidated by the sexual act.

Silk Spectre – The ‘Flirt’ – Overtly uses her sexuality to get what she wants and to get the job done. Her sexuality defines who she is.

Silk Spectre II – The Emotional one; Laurie probably has the most ‘normal’ sex life/sexual attitude to sex of the lot. She certainly gets the most! Laurie instigates the majority of the sex she has, and she uses sex to satisfy (or as a result of) a wide range of emotions.

Veidt – Truly Asexual; Rorschach’s comment about Veidt’s ‘possible homosexuality’ says more about Rorschach than Veidt. Veidt expresses no sexual desires, motivations or drive towards male or female.

Rorschach – Antisexual; Rorschach finds the physical act of sex repellent, disgusting. He is probably hetero, but represses his sex drive because he finds it shameful and disgusting – probably sees it as weakness too. Any context in which he raises sex (hetero or homo) is never favourable. I would suggest Rorschach is far from homosexual – his loathing of the sexual act itself, even with a woman, prohibits the thought of having sex with a man crossing his mind. Does not hate women in general; just those who are overtly sexual. Dislikes the sexualised aspect of SSII’s costume, but has a begrudging respect for her because she doesn’t actively flaunt her sexuality besides this.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:50 am 
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what about Dr M?
the way i see it, he has no need for sex, but does it because his partner want's it, (janey/laurie) and is not repulsed by it, in a way he is asexual, and has no sex drive, but has zero problem with it, perhaps the exact opposite feelings that rorschach has.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Good post, Satan's Slut, boring for a discussion though, coz I think you nailed it. :)

And Avatar's thought about the Doc being the polar opposite to Rorschach makes a lot of sense to me, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Rorschach's sexuality? You may as well have started a thread about Rorschach's money market account.

The only sexual experience we are aware of Walter Kovacs ever having is a wet dream about his mother while in the Charleton Home.

Obviously, his feelings about sex are completely ensnarled in his hatred for his mother and create a self-loathing in himself.

He hates the Hiroshima lovers because for him all physical intimacy is pornographic. Zack Snyder's depiction of Walter's death leaving a bloody representation of the Hiroshima lovers was haunting and sublime... a better choice than Moore and Gibbons made in the comic (if you were to turn the scene in the comic so that you were looking down on the remains of the circular vivarium, Rorschach's death smear would resemble the familiar blood arrow on the smiley).

I know it's trendy pop psych to suggest that all homophobic people are closeted homosexuals, but it is important to note that not all of those who hate homosexuals are actually afraid of them, and the subsets of each group contain both closeted homosexuals, straights, and representations of other deviations (deviation used without negative connotation to indicate sexual interest not seen in our society as normal). Rorschach doesn't hate homosexuality because he is a repressed homosexual, but because he hates all sexuality.

He sees Adrian as homosexual because he has no conception of what Veidt actually is... a man who sees himself as a higher lifeform. To Adrian, having carnal knowledge of another human being, man or woman, would be akin to copulating with a chimpanzee.

Jon, on the other hand, clearly enjoys the physical act of sex with a beautiful woman. He doesn't do it just to please his partner, lest why initiate a relationship at all? He enjoys sex with Janey until she starts to look older and this turns him off and instead of halting the decay of her mitochondria or whatever, he simply trades over to Laurie who is jailbait... but who's gonna arrest the good Doctor? People forget that there is the rape link between Blake and Jon. Blake has an attempt at aggravated rape while Jon is guilty of statutory rape.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Vynson wrote:
Rorschach's sexuality? You may as well have started a thread about Rorschach's money market account.

It's funny because he doesn't have one.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Vynson wrote:
Rorschach's sexuality? You may as well have started a thread about Rorschach's money market account.

It's funny because he doesn't have one.

I hear most of his investment portfolio is tied up in bean futures and Sweet Chariot Sugar Co. stock.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:46 am 
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DCR wrote:
Good post, Satan's Slut, boring for a discussion though, coz I think you nailed it. :)


This was my revenge on you for saying in a few sentences what it took me pages to say! ;)

Quote:
what about Dr M?
the way i see it, he has no need for sex, but does it because his partner want's it, (janey/laurie) and is not repulsed by it, in a way he is asexual, and has no sex drive, but has zero problem with it, perhaps the exact opposite feelings that rorschach has.
what about Dr M?
the way i see it, he has no need for sex, but does it because his partner want's it, (janey/laurie) and is not repulsed by it, in a way he is asexual, and has no sex drive, but has zero problem with it, perhaps the exact opposite feelings that rorschach has.


That's pretty much why I didn't include him. He may have initially held on to some sex drive after his transformation, but as we see him in 1985, pondering his sexuality has about as much point as speculating which of two ants would win a rollerskating contest.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:51 am 
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I (still) like the name of this thread. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:28 pm 
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V.M.L. wrote:
I (still) like the name of this thread. :mrgreen:


lol.

I'll always find Rorschach sexy even if he doesn't want to be sexy. LOL.

Anyway, there are hints that he likes women but he must subdue the feelings. It's no wonder he seems so tense all the time though.

I think he finds it annoying when women wear revealing outfits because it makes it harder for him to ignore sexual feelings and that bothers him(not to mention because to him it seems whorish). Obviously he has enough self control and dislike of sex to ever actually let it get to him though to the point where he does any sex acts. But yeah....when he sees women in those outfits it probably reminds him that he's a hetero male and he doesn't like those feelings.

At most he might masturbate to get rid of the feelings sometimes but I don't even know if he does that. There's no way to know. LOL. I'm not sure if he'd see it as wrong though or not(masturbating). Although the fact that he was disturbed that he had a wet dream over his mom makes me think that he wouldn't even like masturbating....but then again who would want to have a wet dream over their mom? I don't really think any guy would. LOL.

But yeah....not having sex doesn't mean someone is asexual. If that were true that would make me asexual too and I know I'm not. LOL.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:09 pm 
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I think that Alan Moore read "Atlas Shrugged" and based Rorschach's sexuality on Hank Rearden, a character from the novel.

In the novel, Hank Rearden is a steel industrialist that lives only and exclusively for his work, he doesn't care about anything else, not his family and certainly not his wife.

What's interesting is that the character sees sex exactly as Rorschach does, he thinks of casual sex as degrading and demeaning, he doesn't seem to embrace a sexual union as something that can be beautiful and fulfilling, he also talks about how he has never had many women in his life, and weirdly enough, he mentions how he didn't marry his wife out of love, but out of a sense of challenge that she presented, after he marries her he fully admits that he can't stand her.

I think that most of us know how angry our friend Moore gets with people who think of sex as "degrading and demeaning" :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:13 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
I think that Alan Moore read "Atlas Shrugged" and based Rorschach's sexuality on Hank Rearden, a character from the novel.

A lot of literary characters are like the one you describe. Personally I've yet to see more similarities in this aspect of Rorschach's character than in Hippolytus as presented by Euripides, but one can only say with any degree of conviction that there are strong thematic links, rather than a deliberate, specific building off someone else's work. Unless, of course, the author has revealed the inspiration himself (e.g. Travis Bickle).

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Wow, I feel like I'm jumping into this a little late, but I'll just contribute with my opinion...

Rorschach is not afraid of human contact, at least, not before the Roche case in the comic, when flashing back to his time working with Nite Owl while discussing it with Dr. Long, a panel shows them shaking hands. He wasn't unfamiliar or uncomfortable with the concept. It's never made clear whether or not the rest of the gang is aware of what happened that night, save for the obvious change in his crimefighting technique.

I think, when Rorschach killed Blair Roche's kidnapper, he had to re-examine his morals entirely, and rather than admit he was wrong morally in killing the man, he altered his morals entirely and started killing everyone he came up against. He unflinchingly decides to change his perception of himself, shedding the weak skin of Walter Kovacks and becoming the most extreme version of Rorschach possible.

I don't think, when he shakes Dan's hand before they take off for Karnack(sp?) that he did it to communicate a deeper emotions such as love or affection. He did it almost impulsively, not realizing until mid-handshake that he had come full circle and was reflecting the person he was Pre-Roche case. This is also shown when he gives his life in tribute to thousands (or millions, in the movie version) that he will never know. He walks out on Veidt, refusing a compromise, though instead of resisting death in favor of ensuring the truth be told, he willingly surrenders to Dr. Manhatan. You could argue that he merely forfeitted because he knew he was outguneed but given the schene where he fights the police after finding Molloch dead, that he is not one to rationalize when something big is at stake. In the end he surrenders all of his morrals, realizing death is the only way to back down from them with any dignity.

As far as his sexuality is concerned, it is definitely my opinion that Rorschach simply did not allow himself to have one. In his time with Daniel as a crimefighting team, he is able to discern the difference between affectionate or friendly contanct and sensual contact, and he allows himself the difference. It;s possible he even harbored some affection for Dan that went beyond friendly professionalism, but nothing happened, and I think it's the only time in his life that anything could have. After the Roche case, he cuts himself off emotionally from the world until the Comedian dies.

Personally, I like the pairing of Nite Owl II and Rorschach. I don't know if it is remotely arguable, save for their history, that there was the potential for something to happen pre-Roche. But at any rate it isn't cannon. I wish it were, but I have to be honest with myself about that. Rorschach is just painfully asexual, as far as the text provided and the movie shows. A big argument could be made that Rorschach is a repressed homosexual, I'm sure, but personally, I just don't see it. :|

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