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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:41 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
He simply seeks reassurance that his peace will hold - a reasonable request


No, he does not. He says:

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Jon, wait, before you leave... I did the right thing didn't I?? It all worked out in the end.


That doesn't sound like someone seeking assurance about peace. He wants Jon to tell him that his plan was just and moral. Which Jon does not....

The Veidt Method wrote:
Any display of emotion from Adrian would simply be labeled as attention-seeking as well;


Oh, really? Your statement doesn't make sense. Being emotional is not a disease, and Veidt has no problems seeking attention... the world admires him.

The Veidt Method wrote:
And I mean, seriously, if you had just saved the world, you'd be pretty stoked, too.


I admit I would, but there's the small matter of the three million sacrifices he made to get there. I'm obviously a lesser man than Adrian, but I would probably delay the champagne a bit. A moment of silence for the fallen and all that sentimental crap. Expecially if others were watching.

That one emotional outburst is all about him. He's showing everybody else there at Karnak the HE, VEIDT THE SUPERMAN, DID IT (and I bet if you look close enough, you see a bulge in his pants when he says it) AGAINST OVERWHELMING ODDS.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:55 pm 
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That doesn't sound like someone seeking assurance about peace. He wants Jon to tell him that his plan was just and moral. Which Jon does not....

He wants reassurance that he was right - which is essentially asking if he saved the world.

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Oh, really? Your statement doesn't make sense. Being emotional is not a disease, and Veidt has no problems seeking attention... the world admires him.

I'm simply saying that if Veidt has cried, it'd be labeled in this argument as arrogance/self-interest/etc. It's a lose-lose, emotion or no emotion. Veidt simply doesn't need to externalize his.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:07 pm 
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I am still stunned that people are arguing the mathematics of the situation... 3 million to save 4 or 5 billion.

That isn't the issue.

The issue is, why does the smartest man in the world concoct this insane plan in such a manner? Why does he think the world can only be saved by killing millions? What kind of loon are we dealing with here?

Adrian Veidt is an utter pschopath and this is very clearly illustrated. I find it odd that this is in dispute.

The point is that when Adrian Veidt makes plans, the lives of innocent humans are not really taken into consideration. He makes the wide sweeping gestures of posturing as a humanitarian because that is the way psychopaths try to fit in. They watch the emotional responses of others and emulate them. Veidt is going through the clumsy motions of trying to be a philanthopist, hitting on odd notes... nothing consistent, mind you, just a wide shotgun blast of posturing... a benefit performance (of gymnastics?? who the hell wants to watch that for the benefit of Indian Famine Relief? Why not promote a concert?) The Charles Atlas course so broadly and clumsily presented.

Look back at his childhood... at his grades... what kind of person is careful to achieve only average grades? What kind of kid thinks his high grades are "arousing such suspicion...?" The person who is picking up on his behavioral cues from others so that he can pretend to be like them... ie... a child psychopath.

By 17, his parents were both dead. I don't discount the possibility that their deaths may have been at his hand since he was not kind enough to inform us as to how they died.

The irony of the "humanoid" joke. What did you think was the point of that?

Consider:

"True, people died...perhaps unnecessarily, though who can judge such things?"

Moore laid Adrian out to be a psychopath.

Plain as day.

Debating the morality of Adrian Veidt is like chickens debating the morality of Colonel Sanders.


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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:26 pm 
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His solution is the Gordian Knot solution. He cuts the problem in half in one fell swoop. He eliminates the sentiments behind the arms buildup, prevents nuclear war, and probably erases nuclear tension for decades to come, at least. Sure, they may have been other solutions - less permanent solutions, even if Veidt's is also impermanent - that would take much more guesswork, much more time, and be much less reliable. In addition, they wouldn't be in his direct control, but rather in the control of politicians. He can't directly threaten the populace, or else his peace dissolves when he dies. What's Veidt going to do? He had a quick and dirty solution that worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:43 pm 
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But was the world in danger? I thought only after Veidt set up Jon. Had he not done that, Jon would not have left for Mars, putting the U.S at risk. Veidt pushed him over the edge. I don't think Veidt was trying to save the world, I think he was trying to set up his idea of a Utopia, with himself leading the way, even if it meant killing 3 million people in the process.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:51 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
But was the world in danger? I thought only after Veidt set up Jon. Had he not done that, Jon would not have left for Mars, putting the U.S at risk. Veidt pushed him over the edge. I don't think Veidt was trying to save the world, I think he was trying to set up his idea of a Utopia, with himself leading the way, even if it meant killing 3 million people in the process.

Think we covered this a bit earlier. I mean, seriously - hostilities were only suspended because of a single, godlike man that was becoming dissatisfied with humanity. His detachment was going to happen eventually, and Veidt saw this. That's how he knew how to play Manhattan up. If Manhattan hadn't been close to leaving already, Veidt's plan wouldn't have worked with regard to him.

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 Post subject: keep off the grass
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:53 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
His solution is the Gordian Knot solution.

The Gordian Knot solution is not actually a solution. Cutting a knot in half is not the same as untying it. Throwing a jigsaw puzzle in the trash can is not the same as assembling it. Taking a Rubik's Cube apart and reassembling it in order is not the same as solving it.

The Veidt Method wrote:
He cuts the problem in half in one fell swoop.

He ACCELERATES the problem into a crisis that he then "solves" by clearly immoral/unethical/unnecessary means because he does not care if a solution is fair or just or humane as long as it is HIS solution and as long as HE benefits.

The Veidt Method wrote:
He eliminates the sentiments behind the arms buildup, prevents nuclear war, and probably erases nuclear tension for decades to come, at least.

One look at the two decades that have passed in our real world provides ample evidence that he did not do any of these things and that his interference was merely the slaying of millions of human beings.

The Veidt Method wrote:
Sure, they may have been other solutions - less permanent solutions, even if Veidt's is also impermanent - that would take much more guesswork, much more time, and be much less reliable.

There were other solutions... like the ones we use in the real world today. or, Veidt might have become a political leader himself and legitimately led the world into a new era. He was certainly popular enough. It wouldn't have taken any more time than his squid scheme and would have been far more dependable.

The Veidt Method wrote:
In addition, they wouldn't be in his direct control, but rather in the control of politicians.

Politicians elected by the people. Why does the world being in control of it's citizens have to be a BAD thing?

The Veidt Method wrote:
He can't directly threaten the populace, or else his peace dissolves when he dies. What's Veidt going to do? He had a quick and dirty solution that worked.

His plan took quite some time and depended on too many wild variables... like finding a real psychic.

Veidt is a psychopath.

Standing on his mother's grave chewing on a piece of grass... at 17... why is this even in dispute?


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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:56 pm 
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In my view, Veidt is a psychopath who has totally convinced himself that he's not a psychopath. He's intelligent enough to come up with some very intricate explanations to justify his actions and he's articulate enough to express them in a manner that is at least partway persuasive. If that makes any sense.

@t3cii: We saw firsthand that as soon as Dr. Manhattan left, the nukes would start flying within weeks. And Dr. Manhattan would eventually have left Earth. Through death or old age (a la Slater), Laurie would eventually leave him, cutting off his sentimental attachment toward Earth, then it's bye-bye Dr. Manhattan and hello worldwide holocaust. Besides, even Veidt's most ingenious plan could be found out and ruined by Dr. Manhattan. Regardless of what happened, Dr. Manhattan had to go. Veidt just got the departure over with.

Vynson wrote:
The issue is, why does the smartest man in the world concoct this insane plan in such a manner? Why does he think the world can only be saved by killing millions? What kind of loon are we dealing with here?
So what would you recommend? What's a good way to stop Armageddon without mass murder? Going back in time and killing Dr. Manhattan? Throw blue fireworks everywhere, imitate Doc's voice and tell the whole world to cease hostilities immediately?

These ideas have been proposed earlier and are generally considered to be absolutely stupid. So what would you suggest, Vynson? Seriously, I'm curious.

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 Post subject: Re: keep off the grass
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Vynson wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
His solution is the Gordian Knot solution.

The Gordian Knot solution is not actually a solution. Cutting a knot in half is not the same as untying it. Throwing a jigsaw puzzle in the trash can is not the same as assembling it. Taking a Rubik's Cube apart and reassembling it in order is not the same as solving it.

But in the end, the Rubik's Cube is in order - and if that's your goal, you have succeeded.

Quote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
He cuts the problem in half in one fell swoop.

He ACCELERATES the problem into a crisis that he then "solves" by clearly immoral/unethical/unnecessary means because he does not care if a solution is fair or just or humane as long as it is HIS solution and as long as HE benefits.

'Accelerates.' Simply increases the agitation rate. It was going to happen. Oh, and how does he benefit? A sense of self-accomplishment over saving the world? Gee, that's a real terrible thing.

Quote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
He eliminates the sentiments behind the arms buildup, prevents nuclear war, and probably erases nuclear tension for decades to come, at least.

One look at the two decades that have passed in our real world provides ample evidence that he did not do any of these things and that his interference was merely the slaying of millions of human beings.

Two decades without the extended reign of Nixon, with Reagan, with Gorbachev, and nothing ever happened that ended the nuclear tension so decisively in our world. Nothing. There is no comparison. Veidt literally stops it, if not in a permanent way, for some time. The results in our world are no basis for comparison whatsoever, and that assertion is patently ridiculous.

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The Veidt Method wrote:
Sure, they may have been other solutions - less permanent solutions, even if Veidt's is also impermanent - that would take much more guesswork, much more time, and be much less reliable.

There were other solutions... like the ones we use in the real world today. or, Veidt might have become a political leader himself and legitimately led the world into a new era. He was certainly popular enough. It wouldn't have taken any more time than his squid scheme and would have been far more dependable.

A convoluted, unreliable, circumstantial solution that relied on two very cooperative political leaders, neither of which is mentioned in Watchmen. As far as Veidt becoming political? Please. He can't rely on anyone else. He can't rely on other political leaders to cooperate in a world literally on the brink of destruction. Even if he did wrangle arms reductions Reagan-style, look at us today, look where political talks have gotten us - a world that is still on the brink of nuclear war.

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The Veidt Method wrote:
In addition, they wouldn't be in his direct control, but rather in the control of politicians.

Politicians elected by the people. Why does the world being in control of it's citizens have to be a BAD thing?

The majority is not always correct, and majority determines politicians. Look at your beloved V for Vendetta; England freely elects terrible leaders in a stressful situation. This is exactly what happened in Watchmen. V takes action, like Veidt, and takes matters into his own hands. They both bypass the government to achieve a better society for the world.

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The Veidt Method wrote:
He can't directly threaten the populace, or else his peace dissolves when he dies. What's Veidt going to do? He had a quick and dirty solution that worked.

His plan took quite some time and depended on too many wild variables... like finding a real psychic.

Isn't it possible that he knew of the psychic's existence as or before he formulated the plan? Veidt obviously had these variables under control, as the squid itself proves. Genetic engineering he had down flat. The psychic is really the only shady part. He calculated everything.

Quote:
Veidt is a psychopath.

Standing on his mother's grave chewing on a piece of grass... at 17... why is this even in dispute?

Appeals to emotion are low. It's like showing shock pictures of aborted fetuses and saying 'This is why we shouldn't have abortion!' There's no logical merit to it. What reason does Veidt have to be attached to his parents? Why is he required to have certain emotions? Why are his ideas not valid because he doesn't mourn death? Hell, Veidt's likely an atheist; he's got the Manhattan mindset about death, and I don't hear you complaining about him (life and death are unquantifiable abstracts?). Remorse over the dead is either selfish or illogical. Veidt didn't need them and it seems he didn't have much of an emotional attachment to them, so there's no reason he should feel that his life would be worse without them, and feeling sorry for them is pointless, since, well, they're dead. I fail to see how that discounts Veidt's ideas in any way.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:24 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
But in the end, the Rubik's Cube is in order - and if that's your goal, you have succeeded.


Only if the end justifies the means.

The Veidt Method wrote:
'Accelerates.' Simply increases the agitation rate. It was going to happen. Oh, and how does he benefit? A sense of self-accomplishment over saving the world? Gee, that's a real terrible thing.


It was going to happen because an amoral asshole who was smater than he was told him so. And Veidt felt the overwhelming need to show him wrong.

The Veidt Method wrote:
He can't rely on anyone else.


Like the man in Marooned, his solution is:

The Veidt Method wrote:
convoluted, unreliable, circumstantial


The Veidt Method wrote:
Veidt didn't need them


On that you are absolutely correct. That's why it was easy to murder them.

The Veidt Method wrote:
Remorse over the dead is either selfish or illogical


No, it's psychopathic.

Here's some traits of sociopaths( I've show example of Veidt's behavior for your reference):

Manipulative and Conning: They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. ( He killed 3 million people to furhter his plan. They were simply insignificant pawns.)

Grandiose Sense of Self : (exagerates his accomplishments... two acts of philanthropy, two "cases" in his crime fighting career)

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt: (he says he feels bad about his actions, but doesn't appear to be racked with guilt)

Shallow Emotions: (you've already admitted he doesn't need to show emotions)

Incapacity for Love: (who does he love besides himself? Bubastis... oh wait, he killed her, too)

Need for Stimulation: (watches 100 TV sets simultaneously)

Callousness/Lack of Empathy : (he doesn't really feel a thing for his 3 million victims.)

Changes their image as needed. (...crime fighter, business man, philantropist, genius...)

...and this "related" symptom:

Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation: respect, gratitude and love.... (think of the final meeting with Jon)

Veidt is a villain disguised as a hero. He commits the world's most horrendous crime dressing it up in trumped up noble intentions when it's an act of revenge on the one man who ever made him look bad. At the end of it, he has the nerve to ask for a blessing from the closest being to god he either knows or believes in. And god smiles and says: No

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Last edited by dandreiberg on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:35 pm 
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Only if the end justifies the means.

Except in this situation, the Rubik's Cube won't turn.

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It was going to happen because an amoral asshole who was smater than he was told him so. And Veidt felt the overwhelming need to show him wrong.

... and because Manhattan was going to leave, and the moment he did, the Soviets ran into Afghanistan and Nixon put his finger on the button?

Quote:
Like the man in Marooned, his solution is:

Moore definitely portrays Adrian in a negative light throughout the whole ordeal, what with the Black Freighter and the Nazi imagery and all that. Regardless, Marooned has little to do with Adrian in the end. Adrian succeeded in preventing an actual threat. The protagonist in Black Freighter failed to prevent a nonexistent threat. Sometimes, I wonder if the Black Freighter could be turned around on Rorschach. Hrm.

Quote:
Manipulative and Conning

Grandiose Sense of Self

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

Shallow Emotions

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation

I fail to see how these traits are prohibitive to good decision-making. May not make for a great best friend, but as far as I've seen, the people who don't let emotions interfere with their logic make the best decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:52 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Marooned has little to do with Adrian in the end


On that you are mistaken. Marooned and Bernie the newsvendor tag team in exposing the true Adrian Veidt.

Oh, BTW, I was in the middle of a post edit while you posted. You might want to read it again. :oops:

The Veidt Method wrote:
and because Manhattan was going to leave, and the moment he did, the Soviets ran into Afghanistan and Nixon put his finger on the button?


Wrong again. Adrian preyed on his weaknesses and made him leave. Which precipitated WWIII and the need for Adrian to save the world... which was all part of the nefarious plan in the first place.

The Veidt Method wrote:
people who don't let emotions interfere with their logic make the best decisions.


Except Veidt's decision to save to world was based on his need for revenge on the Comedian.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:58 pm 
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dandreiberg wrote:
He commits the world's most horrendous crime dressing it up in trumped up noble intentions when it's an act of revenge on the one man who ever made him look bad.
I still can't bring myself to believe this.

The Comedian wasn't necessarily smarter than Veidt, he had just seen more. The Comedian had seen and acknowledged what Veidt could not -- "It don't matter squat because inside thirty years the nukes are gonna be flyin' like maybugs." And then, Veidt thought things over with his intelligence and logic, coming to the same conclusion the Comedian had reached through pessimism and bluntness.

And so, Veidt set out to prove to himself that he could save the world after all. He did it for selfish reasons and convinced himself that he was really doing it for the greater good. But I don't think he did it for revenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:00 am 
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On that you are mistaken. Marooned and Bernie the newsvendor tag team in exposing the true Adrian Veidt.

Moore meant them to, yes. I believe that Marooned is a poor analogy.

Quote:
Wrong again. Adrian preyed on his weaknesses and made him leave. Which precipitated WWIII and the need for Adrian to save the world... which was all part of the nefarious plan in the first place.

He says himself that Laurie was his only link. What happens when Laurie gets old/dies?

... yeah.

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Except Veidt's decision to save to world was based on his need for revenge on the Comedian.

It wasn't revenge so much as hatred of his methodology.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:09 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
I still can't bring myself to believe this.


It is the most logical explanation.

For an intelligent individual to beleive he can save the world by committing murder is not unusual in cases of psychosis. There was recently a case in my part of the world where an otherwise normal man made began to beleive he had to murder his daughter because god told him that he needed to do so to save her soul.

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Veidt thought things over with his intelligence and logic, coming to the same conclusion the Comedian had reached through pessimism and bluntness.


Not quite. The Comedian told him there was no stopping the nukes. Adrian had to prove him wrong. And kill him in the process.

The Veidt Method wrote:
I believe that Marooned is a poor analogy.


It is Moore's choice of analogy. He put it there for a reason. I should throw it out because you disagree with it?

The Veidt Method wrote:
He says himself that Laurie was his only link. What happens when Laurie gets old/dies?


You're in sequel territory. Complete conjecture. Irrelevant to this discussion.

The Veidt Method wrote:
It wasn't revenge so much as hatred of his methodology.


A methodology that Veidt wasn't afraid to use in his own plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:19 am 
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dandreiberg wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
I believe that Marooned is a poor analogy.


It is Moore's choice of analogy. He put it there for a reason. I should throw it out because you disagree with it?

Absolutely not! But as the saying goes, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Accept nothing on hearsay, as Buddha would say. Neither Moore's word nor my word should be accepted as the moral truth about Veidt - that's what I'm saying.

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The Veidt Method wrote:
He says himself that Laurie was his only link. What happens when Laurie gets old/dies?


You're in sequel territory. Complete conjecture. Irrelevant to this discussion.

Not really. He did it to Janey, and she strongly implies that it'll happen to Laurie right to her face. I mean, honestly, Manhattan himself SAYS that she was his only link. She was going to die eventually. That is fact.

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The Veidt Method wrote:
It wasn't revenge so much as hatred of his methodology.


A methodology that Veidt wasn't afraid to use in his own plan.

I'm talking about Blake's 'black laugh' outlook on life, while doing nothing. Understanding without taking action. Exacerbating the problems instead of fixing them. Veidt does not do that.

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 Post subject: Red, Veidt, and Blue.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:48 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
In my view, Veidt is a psychopath who has totally convinced himself that he's not a psychopath. He's intelligent enough to come up with some very intricate explanations to justify his actions and he's articulate enough to express them in a manner that is at least partway persuasive. If that makes any sense.


It makes very good sense. I agree. He's smart enough and educated enough to know that he's a pschopath and goes to some pretty interesting extremes to disguise it.


Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Vynson wrote:
The issue is, why does the smartest man in the world concoct this insane plan in such a manner? Why does he think the world can only be saved by killing millions? What kind of loon are we dealing with here?

So what would you recommend? What's a good way to stop Armageddon without mass murder? Going back in time and killing Dr. Manhattan? Throw blue fireworks everywhere, imitate Doc's voice and tell the whole world to cease hostilities immediately?

These ideas have been proposed earlier and are generally considered to be absolutely stupid. So what would you suggest, Vynson? Seriously, I'm curious.


For a comic book story? I'm all about the squid.

But let's try to recall that there is a fun little place some of us refer to as "reality" which is the reference we use to compare other models, such as the fictional scapes of Mr. Moore. In reality, a brilliant man trying to end the cold war would realize that either side actually WINNING the cold war would be disasterous and would culminate in a single superpower "policing" the world, contriving enemies, and basically taking over.

Kinda like what the U.S. is doing now. Kinda like exactly.

The U.S. has become the very thing all our propaganda accused the USSR of all along.

So, a better plan for world accord is to ignore the cold war and try to end divisive issues through debate, education, and understanding. Spend more money on books than bombs. And realize that the Russians love their children too.

I realize that's a bit boring in a graphic novel.

But in reality, it's the only chance we've ever had.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:07 am 
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Vynson wrote:
So, a better plan for world accord is to ignore the cold war and try to end divisive issues through debate, education, and understanding. Spend more money on books than bombs. And realize that the Russians love their children too.
Hmm...

Well, Veidt couldn't give money to any person or organization based in Russia without being ostracized. Nobody's image could survive that in 1985, not even that of Veidt. Soon as he gives to the communists, his donations to the U.S. would be turned down flat.

So instead, maybe he uses money and influence to convince government officials from both countries to sit down for peace talks. Hell, he could host them at Karnak -- Antarctica is neutral territory, if I'm not mistaken. So they sit down, talk out their problems for a few days and come to an agreement.

I wonder if Veidt would have the clout to do that. Would the U.N. allow it? And would Veidt allow a utopia to form under rules he did not set down? Most importantly, would the Russians and the U.S. be able to see eye to eye under Veidt's roof?

Any other ideas out there on how Veidt could have ended the Cold War without mass murder?

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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:18 am 
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Alien Squid Monster
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I think it is very obvious that there is an arrogant quality to him, he cared more about killing bubastis then he did half new york. He only killed half new york to achieve something. I like him, but he still is a large arrogant squidgina. Why, just why did he pitch blake out the window. He could have just shot him. He shot moloch. The gun was in moloch's house but blake was sure to have a gun veit could use. He pitched him out the window because his arrogance got the best of him, he was pissed after getting beat by blake then getting told off by bake, then blake discovered his plan. It is just an insult to injury.


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 Post subject: Re: Adrian Veidt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:14 am 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Accept nothing on hearsay, as Buddha would say
.

The same way that you accept Veidt's plan at face value on his say-so alone? LIke I said before, every other character's story is verifiable. Veidt's is hearsay.

The Veidt Method wrote:
Not really. He did it to Janey, and she strongly implies that it'll happen to Laurie right to her face. I mean, honestly, Manhattan himself SAYS that she was his only link. She was going to die eventually. That is fact.


Yes, Laurie would die eventually. But you're still in conjecture. Jon could also find another honey to be his link with the world. We don't know and can't guess what the world would look like in 2025 in the world of Watchmen. You're grasping at straws

The Veidt Method wrote:
I'm talking about Blake's 'black laugh' outlook on life, while doing nothing. Understanding without taking action. Exacerbating the problems instead of fixing them. Veidt does not do that.


But, as the Black Freighter tale (that you don't seem wish to to accpet because it inconveniently besmirches your view of St Veidt the Murderer) points out, that's exactly what he's done. He's become what he hates, and on a false premise. to boot.

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