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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:19 am 
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I have a feeling a thread like this might already exist, but I couldn't find one.

So when you first read the book, did you know Veidt was behind everything? I almost didn't read Watchmen. I saw it at a local book store but almost didn't buy it because it was a bit expensive, since most things tend to cost more in Canada than they do in the U.S. Now, whenever I think I might not get around to reading a book, or seeing a movie, I often find myself flipping towards the end, just out of curiosity. I eventually would buy the book, but by then I knew Veidt killed the Comedian, Rorschach's real identity, and Veidt's scheme. The only twist I didn't know was that Laurie was the Comedian's daughter.

I bring this up because the other night I caught the opening minutes of the Watchmen movie on television. I didn't like the fight between the Comedian and Veidt. I understand that since this is a film adaptation, it would seem natural to want to actually show the fight as it played out, but I think doing that is a mistake. Because it's clear that the person who breaks into the Comedian's apartment is Veidt. Zack Snyder doesn't do a very good job of concealing Veidt's identity. No one else in the story has his physique. And no one else moves like him. To me, it can't be anyone else but Veidt.

Reading the book is a different experience than watching the movie. And I would presume it's a different experience when you read the book without knowing the stories outcome. I already knew it was Veidt when I first saw those panels of the fight. But what did those of you who hadn't already known think? My opinion of Watchmen is that it works better as a comic book series than as a movie, since much of what makes it special is directly tied to the medium of comic books. The story purely on its own isn't that gripping, because you're left with a less than involving murder mystery. One that frequently gets sidetracked. What makes Watchmen special isn't the story, but how the story is told.

So, when Dan sat down at Veidt's computer and discovered the truth, was it a big shock? Or did you more or less come to the conclusion yourself?

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 Post subject: Window Pain
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:22 pm 
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I digested WATCHMEN issue by individual issue during the original run - and thus was fortunately not afforded the option of flipping to the end - and reading through the twelve comics over the course of fourteen months of release is a whole different experience again to reading the collected book edition... and all the better for it. This was after all the intended format WATCHMEN was created for and the one in which the creators excelled and, let's face it, just bloody well showboated to such an extent that their efforts remain unrivalled almost twenty-six years later.

And Veidt? I had him pegged as Blake's killer from issue one. The clincher? Just as Blake's assailant would have regarded him plunging to his doom after defenestrating him and with the emphasis afforded the smiley badge during that whole process, then so Veidt watching Rorschach's descent from his office was distinctly resonant, presenting us as it did with yet another image of somebody having exited through a high-rise window. Veidt's words after Rorschach sealed the deal for me, once again evoking the image of that smiley pin that had featured so prominently only pages beforehand during Blake's demise and thus linking the two events to my mind: Have a nice day.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:09 pm 
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I thought it was a little obvious, seeing as how he was the least developed out of the group, and was seen even lesser on the pages (despite the staged assailant and other things slightly throwing me off).


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:39 am 
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The intro was my favorite scene of the whole movie. Just because you actually get to see them fight, how the Comedian took it, and everything. It's seriously the best part of the movie IMO and it's shown a lot better in the movie then in the comic.

But yeah, it does kind of give away that it would eventually be Veidt. Especially because if you had read the comic first, you would get the references of Veidt throwing away the gun and instead fighting him. I had no idea though, I watched the movie before I read the comic so I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Interesting, interesting.

Anyone else? Come on, guys, don't let this threat become a bust. :|

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Personally, I didn't see it coming at all. Even when Ozymandias saw Nite Owl and Rorschach approaching, I kept expecting Moore and Gibbons to reveal that it was all a red herring somehow.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:44 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
Interesting, interesting.

Anyone else? Come on, guys, don't let this threat become a bust. :|

Freudian slip there?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
t3cii wrote:
Interesting, interesting.

Anyone else? Come on, guys, don't let this threat become a bust. :|

Freudian slip there?


................

Yes.

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 Post subject: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:09 am 
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Nemesis x88 wrote:
The intro was my favorite scene of the whole movie. Just because you actually get to see them fight, how the Comedian took it, and everything. It's seriously the best part of the movie IMO and it's shown a lot better in the movie then in the comic.

We'll agree to differ.

It's eminently debatable as to whether or not there even was much of a fight in the comic, on account of Blake having chosen not to put up one because he psychologically had no fight left in him at that point, instead electing 'suicide by Veidt'.

Which is all kinds of different and deeper - and better - than in the movie.


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 Post subject: Re: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:03 am 
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Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
It's eminently debatable as to whether or not there even was much of a fight in the comic, on account of Blake having chosen not to put up one because he psychologically had no fight left in him at that point, instead electing 'suicide by Veidt'.

Which is all kinds of different and deeper - and better - than in the movie.


Was the apartment trashed in the comic ? I can't remember, but surely it would've been the dead giveaway about wether The Comedian fought back or not.

Either that, or Ozymandias was sicker than we thought !

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 Post subject: Re: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:25 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
It's eminently debatable as to whether or not there even was much of a fight in the comic, on account of Blake having chosen not to put up one because he psychologically had no fight left in him at that point, instead electing 'suicide by Veidt'.

Which is all kinds of different and deeper - and better - than in the movie.


Was the apartment trashed in the comic ? I can't remember, but surely it would've been the dead giveaway about wether The Comedian fought back or not.

Either that, or Ozymandias was sicker than we thought !

I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
feliciano182 wrote:
Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
It's eminently debatable as to whether or not there even was much of a fight in the comic, on account of Blake having chosen not to put up one because he psychologically had no fight left in him at that point, instead electing 'suicide by Veidt'.

Which is all kinds of different and deeper - and better - than in the movie.


Was the apartment trashed in the comic ? I can't remember, but surely it would've been the dead giveaway about wether The Comedian fought back or not.

Either that, or Ozymandias was sicker than we thought !

I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.


The fight itself also caused a bit of a mess: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RKmE63jrTqQ/Tj7BrxKbOUI/AAAAAAAAAaY/p-J2qdPS95w/s1600/Watchmen07ComedianFightGrey.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.


A robbery in which a former crime-fighter at peak physicial aptitude gets thrown through a window ?

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 Post subject: Re: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:59 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.


A robbery in which a former crime-fighter at peak physicial aptitude gets thrown through a window ?

Better than it looking like a targeted attack.

Besides, he wasn't in peak physical condition. He wasn't exactly young at that point. But yes, it does look fishy no matter how Veidt went about it.

t3cii wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
feliciano182 wrote:
Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
It's eminently debatable as to whether or not there even was much of a fight in the comic, on account of Blake having chosen not to put up one because he psychologically had no fight left in him at that point, instead electing 'suicide by Veidt'.

Which is all kinds of different and deeper - and better - than in the movie.


Was the apartment trashed in the comic ? I can't remember, but surely it would've been the dead giveaway about wether The Comedian fought back or not.

Either that, or Ozymandias was sicker than we thought !

I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.


The fight itself also caused a bit of a mess: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RKmE63jrTqQ/Tj7BrxKbOUI/AAAAAAAAAaY/p-J2qdPS95w/s1600/Watchmen07ComedianFightGrey.jpg

"fight"

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 Post subject: Re: Fight Schlub
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Besides, he wasn't in peak physical condition. He wasn't exactly young at that point. But yes, it does look fishy no matter how Veidt went about it.


For his age, he certainly was, that much is made clear by the detectives.

Well, you just killed my little theory about how Veidt just had to trash and pummel The Comedian around his apartment only because of some bizarre rationalization of his.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:17 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was, but that could have been him trying to make it look like a robbery.


A robbery in which a former crime-fighter at peak physicial aptitude gets thrown through a window ?

The cops didn't know that Blake was The Comedian and presumably never found out; they postulate that he's an overseas diplomat who liked a workout but had nevertheless gotten soft on expense account living.

Even Rorschach himself might have conceivably bought this explanation had his ingenuity not led him to the truth with the discovery of Blake's hidden costume.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
The cops didn't know that Blake was The Comedian and presumably never found out; they postulate that he's an overseas diplomat who liked a workout but had nevertheless gotten soft on expense account living.

Even Rorschach himself might have conceivably bought this explanation had his ingenuity not led him to the truth with the discovery of Blake's hidden costume.


:o !

Right, ziller's theory makes even more sense with this context.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Another observation from old...

Chapter V, page 16, panel 4: note that Veidt's yellow buttonhole carnation is streaked with blood and blatantly recalls Blake's smiley badge in terms of colour, shape, staining and also the position in which it is worn.

Perhaps we are meant to compare and contrast these two men at this point whilst considering the relevance of doing so: comparable accessories aside, Blake began his costumed career in a yellow and purple outfit and Ozymandias wears gold and purple... and Veidt, years after retiring, still prefers yellow and purple themed civilian attire.

Add to all of these visual pointers the words spoken by Veidt at V.16.4 - I want to know who's behind this - and I think it's reasonable to argue that Moore and Gibbons are giving us the answer to that very question by telling us that Adrian Veidt killed Edward Blake, then leaving us to ponder the reasons why.


Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Personally, I didn't see it coming at all. Even when Ozymandias saw Nite Owl and Rorschach approaching, I kept expecting Moore and Gibbons to reveal that it was all a red herring somehow.

Out of curiosity, Curiosity, I would assume that your expectations changed somewhat only mere pages later when Veidt murdered his manservants. Red herring... or chartreuse squid?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Personally, I didn't see it coming at all. Even when Ozymandias saw Nite Owl and Rorschach approaching, I kept expecting Moore and Gibbons to reveal that it was all a red herring somehow.

Out of curiosity, Curiosity, I would assume that your expectations changed somewhat only mere pages later when Veidt murdered his manservants. Red herring... or chartreuse squid?

Yeah. But even then, I kept waiting for the obvious, cliched ending. I kept waiting to see how Rorschach and Nite Owl would come out on top. So when the squid finally surfaced, it hit me in the gut especially hard.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:05 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Yeah. But even then, I kept waiting for the obvious, cliched ending. I kept waiting to see how Rorschach and Nite Owl would come out on top. So when the squid finally surfaced, it hit me in the gut especially hard.


Same here, not to say it was the only thing Watchmen did, but among the most memorable for me is that moment with the squid, specifically the part where you feel Moore's hand slapping on your shoulder, while he looks at you right in the eye and says:

"Nope"

I had no idea what to think at that moment, but I was pretty certain that what I read was something VERY special.

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