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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:24 am 
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11.24.1

Adrian's at Karnak, explaining his plan to Nite Owl and Rorschach.

Quote:
Jon, being too powerful and unpredictable to fit my plans, needed removing.


Unpredictable

That's one word I never would have used to describe Doc Manhattan. He's perfectly predictable. Apart from a weak spot for strong women, he does exactly what he's told.
He never initiates anything except perhaps something related to his scientific curiosity.

WTF is Veidt really saying here?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:48 am 
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Doc Manhattan sees things that nobody else does. It's not just that he's unpredictable, it's that he's impossible to understand.

There was too great a risk that Doc Manhattan could prevent the exploding squid or mitigate its damage. He was a variable that Adrian couldn't control. And so, he needed removing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:34 am 
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I understandt the needed removing part. :roll:

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Doc Manhattan sees things that nobody else does.


True, but he's not omniscient. He can see his life like it's all happening right now, but he can't see everything. And he can only see things that he decides to pay attention to, like when he traces the tachyons back to Karnak. He has to consciously make this decision.

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
There was too great a risk that Doc Manhattan could prevent the exploding squid or mitigate its damage. He was a variable that Adrian couldn't control.


I'll give you the last half of that statement. Veidt obviously thinks he can't control Jon.

I'm not so sure about the first half. How would he know? Who would tip him off? He was blatantly unaware of the cancer plot as it was revealed to him, even though he knew, and he never found out that Adrian was responsible for that (think about it for a minute). How would he become aware of the Squid? Blake? He was alive long enough to say something yet chose to tell none but Moloch.

Adrian's statement only makes sense superficially. Under close scrutiny, it seems to lose all meaning :!:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:49 am 
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Maybe Jon had only given Veidt "certain" information regarding transportation, to keep him busy. Veidt began to discover that he'd been "hood"winked and felt that Jon wasn't to be trusted.

Ok, it's before my first cup of coffee this morning. I think I need a cup. :?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:19 am 
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I think its also possible that Adrian thought about discussing his plan with Jon, but then decided he wasn't sure about how Jon would react, hence the comment about predictability, and was worried that if Jon decided to oppose Adrian's plan then he would be far too powerful for Adrian to prevent him from doing so.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:52 am 
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Depends on your perception of point A and point B.

You and I tend to chart predictability based on our view of time. We're lucky if we can formulate an annual budget, let alone a decent retirement plan. We look at Jon's path from accident to shacking up at the military base/lab with Laurie and we don't see much unpredictability.

Yet, who would have predicted that the most powerful man in the history of humankind would be so weak-willed that even low-level government agents could manipulate him with obvious ease.

But, let's say you're Adrian Veidt and you've got a plan that goes on past your own life and you start charting all the contingencies. You have Jon's pschiatric profile and you can't help but notice an increasing disconnection with humanity. You draw a line. Your point B is perhaps beyond where the normal person would plot it. And you realize that Jon would be able to plot his point B even farther out.

And you realize that his apparent immortality alone makes him unpredictable. His other powers compound that. That he's been easy to manipulate in the last few decades is, of itself, odd... but does not take away from the growing unpredictability as the timeline grows.

You and I see this:

.------------.

And we think the next dot is predictable.

Adrian sees this:

.------------_---------------!--------------X

And sees unpredictability.

Jon sees this:

*/*

A crystaline time structure... a tachyon interference of unknown time/space determination... and a continuance of a crystaline time structure.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:33 am 
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I like Vynson's explanation, much better than my one :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Vynson wrote:
he's been easy to manipulate in the last few decades is, of itself, odd... but does not take away from the growing unpredictability as the timeline grows


That opens the possibility as to whether Veidt would have thought of manipulating Jon in other, more subtle ways, thinking of him as a more direct tool...

Vynson wrote:
And you realize that his apparent immortality alone makes him unpredictable. His other powers compound that. That.


I think understand what you're saying. While Jon is not necessarily an immediate threat, he sees him as a threat to the long term viability of his vision. Ironically, he's made no visible contingency for succession.

Vynson wrote:
A crystaline time structure... a tachyon interference of unknown time/space determination... and a continuance of a crystaline time structure.


That's certainly Jon's view of time, prior to sharing the removal of his intrinsic field with a certain reegineered Rex Felis. Yet one of Moore's themes being who makes the world coupled with I leave it entirely in your hands seems to indicate that only the past can be set in (crystalline) stone.

Perhaps the crystalline (ie immutable) view of past/present/future as seen by Jon was a function of his lack of exercise of will. When you make no decisions, you have actually decided to go with the flow, and will go wherever the current takes you.

Remember that on Mars, Jon thought the cloudy future was perhaps due to nuclear explosions. When in New York, he opines that the Tachyons are causing his perceptions to be muddy. What if he's wrong about that, too? What if his inability to see the future is because the crystal has not yet formed, but is only potentially still molecules waiting to be interlaced?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Whatever the meaning, it's a sentiment that was also (somewhat cryptically) shared by Blake:

I mean, you fought that big blue geek! You know what his head's like! I tellya, who knows which way he'll jump if anyone messes with him... he might...he might just... Nah. I don' wanna think. I don' wanna think about it.

Turnin' into a flake. God help us all.


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