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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Lord Ruthven, thanks for the interesting info. But clearly, the location of the Spear of Destiny is usually illustrated on the right chest.

I only post this fact because of another thread discussing that others, including Gibbons?, feel there are no religious allusions in Watchmen. Bunk.[/color]


Yeah, that's a problem I have with a lot of religious art - they seem to get the most important details wrong, which then serves to misinform others :(

As for "bunk", do you mean that those who feel there are no religious allusions in Watchmen are talking bunk, or that their assertations are bunk?

I think, ultimately, only Alan Moore would really know if he intended any religious allusions and symbolism to be present. Although Dave Gibbons actually illustrated the book, he was working for the most part from Alan's very detailed scripts. It could well be possible that Alan didn't actually convey to Dave the hidden meanings he intended to seed within.

Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Lord Ruthven wrote:

As for "bunk", do you mean that those who feel there are no religious allusions in Watchmen are talking bunk, or that their assertations are bunk?

I think, ultimately, only Alan Moore would really know if he intended any religious allusions and symbolism to be present. Although Dave Gibbons actually illustrated the book, he was working for the most part from Alan's very detailed scripts. It could well be possible that Alan didn't actually convey to Dave the hidden meanings he intended to seed within.

Here's an excerpt from the "Did Veidt really catch the Bullet" thread:

Nonfactor wrote:
This thread embodies the type of over-analysis that goes on among Watchmen fans. When in reality Alan Moore was just having a guy catch a bullet because it'd be cool, fans take the imagery and go "Christian symbolism!" "blood of the innocent!" and I wonder if this is a good thing for literary interpretation or a bad thing.

That comment embodies the perception of those who just "don't get it." Behold perhaps the single greatest panel of Watchmen.

Image

Note that Adrian has claimed victory in front of the mural of Alexander "solving" the Gordian Knot. That's cool in of itself. Mo(o)re importantly note that Adrian's outstretched hands fall over the image of objects going through his palms. Adrian is pictured in an almost joyful agony, with a band around his head as a crown of thorns would be. This is CLEARLY meant to depict Adrian as Jesus in that he has sacrificed himself for the benefit of mankind. All this on top of a round light resembling the smiley face with Adrian's arms pointing to 5 minutes to midnight. An EPIC panel.

If you still don't see the Christian symbolism, I suggest wiping the blood from your right eye.

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Last edited by Burgers N Borscht on Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:16 pm 
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I'm not seeing this was mentioned,maybe because this is too obvious but I didn't noticed it during my first reading so there it goes:

If you examine Ozymandias costume you will see the Eye Of Providence(eye in a pyramid) on his chest,yet another christian/masonic symbol.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Lord Ruthven wrote:

As for "bunk", do you mean that those who feel there are no religious allusions in Watchmen are talking bunk, or that their assertations are bunk?

I think, ultimately, only Alan Moore would really know if he intended any religious allusions and symbolism to be present. Although Dave Gibbons actually illustrated the book, he was working for the most part from Alan's very detailed scripts. It could well be possible that Alan didn't actually convey to Dave the hidden meanings he intended to seed within.

Here's an excerpt from the "Did Veidt really catch the Bullet" thread:

Nonfactor wrote:
This thread embodies the type of over-analysis that goes on among Watchmen fans. When in reality Alan Moore was just having a guy catch a bullet because it'd be cool, fans take the imagery and go "Christian symbolism!" "blood of the innocent!" and I wonder if this is a good thing for literary interpretation or a bad thing.

That comment embodies the perception of those who just "don't get it." ...


Have to agree, on all points. Anyone who thinks Moore doesn't include multiple layers and symbolism in his work obviously haven't read that much Moore. Either that or they only take things at face value.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Burgers N Borscht wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
...but Walter was born on 3/21/1940, and March 21st is the first date on which Easter can occur...

death of Jesus, birth of Walter

All this is not to imply that Walter is Satan. Walter/Rorschach represents punishment of bad without exception (moral objectivism). Jesus embodies forgiveness for even the most heinous actions.

By the way, Easter in 1940 fell on March 24. Which means the death of Jesus (Good Friday) would have been 3 days before ........March 21 :D :D :D

Oh whoops, here's the answer to my question in the other thread.

But your calculations are wrong. March 24 was Easter Sunday, so that makes March 22 Good Friday. Walter was born on Holy Thursday instead, which coincides with the Last Supper, the Garden of Gethsemane, and Christ's betrayal by Judas.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:45 pm 
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[NOTE: Merged. --"Curiosity Inc."]

(Posted here because it takes both the movie and the GN into account.)

This comment happened in the thread discussing whether or not the older gay couple at Rafael's is supposed to be Captain Metropolis and Hooded Justice:

Ikke av flesk wrote:
So what if Dave Gibbons denied is is nelly and h.j?

They denied alot of things....


Such as the 'I DID IT' panel, the painting on the wall, the two swords are placed directly behind veidts hands, like they're impaling them. You know, kinda like christ?

They deny is was deliberate but i dont really believe them...

This could very much be Nelly and h.j


I never noticed that before, but it made me realize that there are a number of implicit parallels set up between Veidt and the way Christ is typically depicted in art and literature- the idea of taking the world's burdens onto himself, the closeup on his hand covered in blood with a deep wound in the center of his palm. Not to mention the use of vaguely classically Christlike poses in the film:
Image
Image

The first poster looks eerily like a picture of Christ and a group of children that was hanging on the wall of the Sunday School classroom I attended as a child. The second (even more passive and somewhat cruciform) pose happens right before a confrontation that only happens in the movie between Adrian and Dan, during which Adrian is badly beaten but doesn't fight back (shades of Jesus' adage to turn the other cheek instead of fighting back when someone hurts you, though given a severe twist when you consider all the beating Adrian delivers earlier in the scene).

However, it's very obvious that even if Veidt is offered up as a character one can possibly find sympathy for, depending on his or her own worldview, he is not to be seen as being literally Christlike. Veidt doesn't save the world by allowing himself to be sacrificed; he does it by sacrificing others. The only burden he takes on is one of massive guilt, and rather than transcending what he does for the world, it's implied (in the film especially) that he will be permanently weighted down by it. He is perhaps, if this symbolism was intentional, a dark, warped version of the messianic ideal.

However, given Watchmen's general stance on the mentality of people who feel the need to act as guardians to the rest of humanity, Veidt is perhaps not a distortion of the messiah archetype so much as he is a reaction to it. To someone who can believe in Jesus Christ's existance as a historical figure but not as a divine being, it's possible to read the Passion story as that of a man who was either convinced he was the savior of humanity or who did not but was burdened with enthusiastic followers who did. Either way, this non-divine interpretation of Jesus can be seen as a man who became fixated on the idea that he had to die to save the world. His sacrifice was personal rather than carried out with the blood of others, but it was still the result of a mindset that believed in desperate means of acting as a savior and did not reject the idea of death as a means to a greater end. Watchmen's existential and secular standpoint holds the governments of the world to the same questioning as it holds its superheroes- "what makes them any better equipped to make decisions for the world than the people they are 'protecting'?", and it is all too easy to apply the same line of thinking to the concept of religion, all the way up to its most important figures.

(Let's try to keep this discussion civil, you guys. I'm actually a fairly religious person myself and just tried to think of it from all possible angles.)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:53 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
meganphntmgrl wrote:
However, given Watchmen's general stance on the mentality of people who feel the need to act as guardians to the rest of humanity, Veidt is perhaps not a distortion of the messiah archetype so much as he is a reaction to it. To someone who can believe in Jesus Christ's existance as a historical figure but not as a divine being, it's possible to read the Passion story as that of a man who was either convinced he was the savior of humanity or who did not but was burdened with enthusiastic followers who did. Either way, this non-divine interpretation of Jesus can be seen as a man who became fixated on the idea that he had to die to save the world.

In this respect, Veidt is very much the antithesis of Dr Manhattan. The trappings of Christian symbolism are also equally as abundant in the latter's case: apparent death and subsequent resurrection - Osterman literally translating as Easter Man - Messianic poses, walking on water, allusions to creating life. In the case of Manhattan, however, here we have a character who to all intents and purposes does indeed possess the very kind of powers that could readily be attributed to a divine being... only he lacks the desire or interest to employ them in order to save humanity by willingly acting as its guardian.


That is an excellent point, and well worth taking into account. It's also worth noting that Jon basically is a god, but denies it, whereas Veidt sees himself as a messianic figure but is really just another human being. There's an ironic reversal there- the one who should be protecting humanity can't really be bothered with it, and the one who tries to is so fuelled by his own ego that it makes the price questionable.


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 Post subject: Religion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:55 pm 
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[NOTE: Thread merge! --"Curiosity Inc."]

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but in a world where a super-being exists how does it affect religion? I’ve meet Christians who’ve said that it’s indicated in the bible that God created the universe solely for humans (don’t quote me on this) and thus they don’t believe in life outside of Earth. So, with Doctor Manhattan’s presence would it fault that line of thinking? I think that since most religious doctrines (to the best of my knowledge) preach of humans being simple and powerless with the godly figures being all-powerful; maybe Doctor Manhattan would become a religious icon? A cult would develop centered around him?

For all it’s discussion in concern with politics, culture and social issue I don’t think Watchmen touches on religion on a whole lot (I haven’t read it in over a year so I might need to brush up on it). Maybe the idea that Manhattan just throws the need for religion out window is true and it just isn’t a common thing. I don’t know, what do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:29 pm 
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ViolentNewCountry wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but in a world where a super-being exists how does it affect religion? I’ve meet Christians who’ve said that it’s indicated in the bible that God created the universe solely for humans (don’t quote me on this) and thus they don’t believe in life outside of Earth.


Although yes the universe itself was created with life in mind (remember the Angels hand been around before creation) I think it might be a stretch to say that that emans there is no life beyond earth. From a believer of intelligent design it makes no sense to make a nigh infinite cosmos and put stuff on on planet. Despite no discussion of aliens in the Bible, there is no nidcation that Earth is the only planet with life.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:58 pm 
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ViolentNewCountry wrote:
For all it’s discussion in concern with politics, culture and social issue I don’t think Watchmen touches on religion on a whole lot (I haven’t read it in over a year so I might need to brush up on it).

On the contrary, the question of who made the universe is a very prominent through-line in the Watchmen novel. Here are some highlights.

Dr. Manhattan wrote:
"I don't think there is a god, Janey. If there is, I'm not him." --Chapter IV, pg. 11, panel 8


Dr. Manhattan wrote:
"Often, [the Viet Cong] ask to surrender to me personally, their terror of me balanced by an almost religious awe." IV.20.2


Dr. Manhattan wrote:
"A world grows up around me. Am I shaping it, or do its predetermined contours guide my hand? ...Without me, things would have been different. If the fat man hadn't crushed the watch, if I hadn't left it in the test chamber. Am I to blame, then? Or the fat man? Or my father for choosing my career? Which of us is responsible? Who makes the world? Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made. Perhaps it simply is, has been, will always be there. A clock without a craftsman." --Chapter IV, pgs. 27-28


Rorschach wrote:
"Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion, bear children, Hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no meaning save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us." --VI.26.2-5


Personally, I think the book has a rather atheist bent.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Personally, I think the book has a rather atheist bent.


I don't know if I'd say atheist, more agnostic. just because "God" isn't there doesn't mean there are no gods.

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Thanks for the pointers.

Sorry Brooklyn if I came off as ignorant in regards to assuming the bible's view on outside life. That is interesting. I mean, we haven't had any men getting nailed to the cross and coming back, doing miracles and such so wouldn't the sudden change of having a powerful being in Manhattan stir alot up? I guess they've had a few decades to become accustom to it.

Thanks for the quotes Curiosity, already stated I hadn't read it in too long a time and that really refreshed me. It is really brought up more then I give it credit for and I agree that it's a fairly Atheistic novel at times. It reminds of the film Super, which also has a bit of criticism on religion. I guess it's strange that those two go so well hand in hand (superheroes and religion). I think it's the passion that fuels people to dress up in colorful outfits and fight crime that is akin to the passion used to believe and dedicate one's self to a religious life. It's very raw in ways and personally-satisfying. I recall one of the real-life super-heroes in the HBO documentary (I think simply title Superheroes) being particularly religious.

Also, to correct my idea that religion is obsolete in the world of Watchmen, I believe it's mentioned by Hollis that one of his former adversaries has "turned to Jesus" since his crime-fighting days. So there, heh.

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:57 pm 
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ViolentNewCountry wrote:
Sorry Brooklyn if I came off as ignorant


I didn't think that at all, I was just saying, I have years of religious school education under my belt (12 years of catholic school).

Furthermore the church has recently come out and said that it's okay for Catholics to believe in aliens

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:51 pm 
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Dr. Brooklyn wrote:
Furthermore the church has recently come out and said that it's okay for Catholics to believe in aliens


Another good reason not to be religious :P !

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