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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:05 am 
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I love how you direct me to one of your "jokes"
And yes...DDC's joke was creative, and it had humor to it. So that is my defintion of a creative joke :D


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:38 pm 
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CSFRITZ wrote:

Actually according to he Holy Bible a "new creature" is just in reference to Salvation, not to baptism...

In the New Testament it says
Quote:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Water baptism in scripture is a outward sign of a inward faith.
There is no saving in the water, just obedience...





I think you have a point, but I also think it's partly just semantics.
Different Xtian flavors interpret the bible in radically different ways.
I do think that the act of baptism at least symbolizes a new birth...in fact, in the flavor I was raised in, we practiced full immersion and the process symbolized death, burial and resurrection as a new creature.

And I certainly think at the moment of killing the dog and being hit by the blood, "Walter" dies, is buried (in his own subconcious?) and is reborn as Rorschach.
He says as much himself.

Also, I just remembered this.
Doc Manhattan at some point (don't have the book in front of me) says (to Janey, I think) something like "I don't think there is a god."

I think the whole ambiance of WATCHMEN supports the idea of a godless universe....at least until Jon is transformed ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:44 pm 
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Semantics?...yes...
I was going off how the Bible portrays Baptism and not how denominations interpret it. Baptism in religon is very intimate and powerful for the believer. I too have heard/seen it as leaving the "dead" man in the water and the "new" man comes out.

I dont know though if that was the real turning point for Rorschach...
I will have to dwell on that alittle more


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:50 pm 
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CSFRITZ wrote:
I love how you direct me to one of your "jokes"
And yes...DDC's joke was creative, and it had humor to it. So that is my defintion of a creative joke :D


I normally don't like to show off, but I figured the winking emoticon made it all cool. Thanks for putting "jokes" in quotation marks, by the way. That was kind.

Quote:
I dont know though if that was the real turning point for Rorschach...


Rorschach wrote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.


That sounds like a definite turning point, there, Mr. Fritz.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:21 am 
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Quote:
I normally don't like to show off, but I figured the winking emoticon made it all cool. Thanks for putting "jokes" in quotation marks, by the way. That was kind.


Are you being sarcastic???mmmmm...???? ;) ;) ;)

Refresh my memory to...
Quote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.

was this after the splattering of blood?
I honestly cant remember and dont have a GN in front of me.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:31 am 
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CSFRITZ wrote:
Quote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.

was this after the splattering of blood?
I honestly cant remember and dont have a GN in front of me.

Here's a more full quotation:

Rorschach wrote:
Shock of impact ran along my arm. Jet of warmth spattered on chest, like hot faucet. It was Kovacs who said "Mother" then, muffled under latex. It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again. (VI.21.6-7)

I hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:42 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
CSFRITZ wrote:
Quote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.

was this after the splattering of blood?
I honestly cant remember and dont have a GN in front of me.

Here's a more full quotation:

Rorschach wrote:
Shock of impact ran along my arm. Jet of warmth spattered on chest, like hot faucet. It was Kovacs who said "Mother" then, muffled under latex. It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again. (VI.21.6-7)

I hope that helps.


thank you, helps very much!
And Broken Finger you are correct...i tip my hat to you sir.
:D


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:35 pm 
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You can add Jon walking over water as a religious reference to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:41 pm 
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CSFRITZ wrote:
Refresh my memory to...
Quote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.

was this after the splattering of blood?
I honestly cant remember and dont have a GN in front of me.


Well, I'm not trying to be snarky.....but that is actually the very first reference/citation I made in this thread......

I'm just sayin..... ;)

saint


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:19 pm 
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saint wrote:
CSFRITZ wrote:
Refresh my memory to...
Quote:
It was Kovacs who closed his eyes. It was Rorschach who opened them again.

was this after the splattering of blood?
I honestly cant remember and dont have a GN in front of me.


Well, I'm not trying to be snarky.....but that is actually the very first reference/citation I made in this thread......

I'm just sayin..... ;)

saint


sorry dude :oops:
this is how threads work though...you are on topic then on another, then on another...and sort of forget the first comment.

And yes very snarky ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:52 am 
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Quote:
Also, I just remembered this.
Doc Manhattan at some point (don't have the book in front of me) says (to Janey, I think) something like "I don't think there is a god."

I think the whole ambiance of WATCHMEN supports the idea of a godless universe....at least until Jon is transformed


But, Also Jon had become uninterested in humanity and thought that they were worthless, until her learned otherwise from Laurie

I don't think the GN is specifically atheistic, I think Rorschach might be under the impression that with the evil, there can't be a God, but in a sense his "birth" signifies a new age fore justice and Then his death, with a book left behind to tell his story...

Even though Rorschach is violent, I believe he is the closest Jesus allegory
I think Jon is actually the Old Testament God (yes the old and new are the same God, but if you read the two they have differant tones) who flooded the Earth*

*I am Christian, not trying to bash the faith

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:27 pm 
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I like the Spear of Destiny angle when looking at the blood splatter on Rorschach's coat.

Let's try some others here (warning: stretches may follow).

When Rorschach is killed, his arms are up in the air in the traditional cross pose. His tie is flying up in the air, almost creating a top for the silhouette "cross." Also, to his left and right, the handles of the hoverbikes are clearly visible - which just happen to look somewhat like crosses (Jesus was crucified between two thieves).

Dr. Manhattan, the killer, is obviously the God figure. Once involved in cleansing the world himself, he has since removed himself and left the job to Rorschach. He "forsakes" Rorschach and kills him, and Rorschach sacrifices himself to protect his morality, somewhat dying for the sins of man.

And how about Laurie, who's Polish, and Dreiberg, who's Jewish, who choose the murderer (Veidt) over Rorschach, which results in Rorschach's eventual death?

Om nom nom, Christian allegories.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Very interesting...
Thanks for that!

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:38 pm 
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Oh, and I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Rorschach had an unknown father? Though his mom wasn't exactly the Virgin Mary - then again, though, she was the opposite, a prostitute, which may play into the "backwards Jesus" angle a few people here have mentioned.

By the way, I'm an atheist, so let me know if any of the Biblical stuff I'm talking about is faulty.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:44 pm 
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saint wrote:
Well, in the protestant tradition at least, water is simply a "stand in" for the actual blood of christ, so I don't know that I'd call it "reverse".


No. Wine is a stand-in for blood in communion, but baptism is always water. John the Baptist baptized Jesus with water. Water is a stand-in for the holy spirit. Not blood.

Walter as "anti-Jesus" actually holds water very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:26 am 
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With "St. Seymour" as his first deciple!

:o :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:16 am 
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Vynson wrote:
Walter as "anti-Jesus" actually holds water very well.

Whoa. So the blood on Walter is likely purposely drawn on the left side of his chest (see page 2 of this thread). Here's another thought -- the Spear of Destiny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Destiny causes blood (and water) to spill OUT of Jesus; Walter's left-sided chest blood was spilled ONTO him. The blood on Walter is not drawn on his left upper chest or left lower abdomen -- it's centered symmetrically (!!!) opposite to where Jesus's wound is typically depicted.

Another cool and convenient reason for Walter to be lefty too.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Sorry to bring this up again, not sure if any of these points have been made, but Walter was born on 3/21/1940, and March 21st is the first date on which Easter can occur, though it didn't fall on the 21st that year.

Joanna means "grace of God" and was the name of a woman closely associated with Jesus's tales, and it's Rorschach's mother's middle name.

Joseph, Walter's middle name, was, of course, the name of Jesus's surrogate father, and it means "God gives."

Now you know!

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:13 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Walter was born on 3/21/1940, and March 21st is the first date on which Easter can occur, though it didn't fall on the 21st that year.

Joanna means "grace of God" and was the name of a woman closely associated with Jesus's tales, and it's Rorschach's mother's middle name.

Joseph, Walter's middle name, was, of course, the name of Jesus's surrogate father, and it means "God gives."


All of that is very interesting. I like this reading more and more.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:44 am 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
...but Walter was born on 3/21/1940, and March 21st is the first date on which Easter can occur...

death of Jesus, birth of Walter

All this is not to imply that Walter is Satan. Walter/Rorschach represents punishment of bad without exception (moral objectivism). Jesus embodies forgiveness for even the most heinous actions.

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