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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Thermodynamic Miracle
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You guys have dived deeper than I ever have!

I simply took it as him coming to realize what he needed to become in order to "do the job." Which to me at least makes sense, because later on he says something like 'we become the same thing we try to get rid of' or fight or something.

And that ties in to my whole idea of, sometimes in order to "good" you have to do something "bad." Which is why good/bad or righteous/evil doesn't really work in the real world. It's really all about "virtue." What is virtuous, and when does it seem good or bad?

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 Post subject: Old or New?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Hey. Everybody.

You do realize that if we carry this "Walter as Jesus" idea any further that we're going to have to start discussing whether or not that makes Rorschach's Journal the Bible, yeah?


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 Post subject: Re: Old or New?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Broken Finger wrote:
Hey. Everybody.

You do realize that if we carry this "Walter as Jesus" idea any further that we're going to have to start discussing whether or not that makes Rorschach's Journal the Bible, yeah?

The Veidt Method wrote:
He only lives on through his journal. That's part of the Jesus metaphor.

Way ahead of ya. :D

But yeah, I think that's accurate. I mean, a couple of these things taken independently could amount to just conspiracy theories and rampant stretching of the truth. But his middle name, his lack of a father, the book he leaves behind after he's forsaken by a God figure after being betrayed by "Jews" that chose a murderer over him, his birthday on an "Easter" milestone day, the blood on his abdomen, his moral absolutism, his pose when he dies and the handles of the bikes next to him, all of that together... bona fide Jesus metaphor here. Reminds me of Light in August.

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 Post subject: Anabaptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:13 pm 
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If it wasn't in this thread, it didn't happen.



Was it in this thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Anabaptism
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:16 pm 
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Broken Finger wrote:
If it wasn't in this thread, it didn't happen.



Was it in this thread?

Maybe it was... maybe it wasn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Anabaptism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:18 am 
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Broken Finger wrote:
If it wasn't in this thread, it didn't happen.



Was it in this thread?
If it wasn't before, it is now.

To be clear, however, I don't think we should take the parallels between Rorschach and Christ too seriously. Remember, Christ stood for non-violence and tolerance, neither of which applies to Rorschach.

No, I think that Rorschach is the anti-Christ, whose coming marks the apocalypse. Now if only I could find a 666 connection... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Anabaptism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:48 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Broken Finger wrote:
If it wasn't in this thread, it didn't happen.



Was it in this thread?
If it wasn't before, it is now.

To be clear, however, I don't think we should take the parallels between Rorschach and Christ too seriously. Remember, Christ stood for non-violence and tolerance, neither of which applies to Rorschach.

No, I think that Rorschach is the anti-Christ, whose coming marks the apocalypse. Now if only I could find a 666 connection... :P

Or it could be Moore taking a shit on Christianity, which is possible as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Well, I haven't been able to post for a while, so it's nice to come back and see that there has been some renewed discussion of my post.

I have to admit, though, I never thought of Rorschach as the anti-christ....

I never saw a LOT of the other allusions that people have come up with.

Interesting stuff. I'll have to give it some more thought.

saint


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:04 am 
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Chapter I
Page 1
panel 3

"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians <now here comes the important part, so pay attention> will look up and shout "Save us!"...and I'll look down and whisper "No."

Uh, ya think you'd ever hear this out of the mouth of Jesus? Rorschach and Jesus both value good, but their approach to "bad" is totally opposite -- symmetrically opposite.

It's no accident that Walter is born on the date Jesus died. It's no accident that Walter's blood stains are symmetrically opposite that of Jesus' wound on the cross. Moral objectivism, as symbolized by Walter/Rorschach, is portrayed as a philosophy OPPOSITE that of Jesus.

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 Post subject: Allegories
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:29 am 
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[NOTE: A few of the following posts were taken from the Goode discussion in the movie forum. At TVM's suggestion later, I merged the posts here and changed the topic's title. In doing so, the original thread was kept on topic and the scope of this thread was widened. --"Curiosity Inc."]

I watched Nuremberg last weekend and noticed something I never realized before seeing that new (at least to me) footage of nazism parades: there was a huge influence of the egypt both in the design of nazism 'modus operandi' as in much of german architechture. i mean you get that same feeling, with the flags (like the roman empire, like the egyptian dinasties did by carrying their gods upon them) and the vertical buildings.

and veid it is indeed a german name...hmmm.

it seems that goode isn't so far off the track anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Anabaptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:54 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Remember, Christ stood for non-violence and tolerance, neither of which applies to Rorschach.

No, I think that Rorschach is the anti-Christ, whose coming marks the apocalypse. Now if only I could find a 666 connection...


WALTER
JOSEPH
KOVACS


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:41 am 
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I see the obvious Roman influence. I see nothing of the Egyptian in Nazism.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:48 am 
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RONALD
WILSON
REAGAN

There's every reason to think that Moore was channeling the Bible as a source of allusions in Watchmen: it's characteristic of his work, and you can find Biblical allusions already in Swamp Thing (if you remember, a character called Judith chops off the head of one of Constantine's associates at the climax of the American Gothic storyline, patently alluding to the OT account of Judith and Holofernes). But as a general rule, one should avoid taking these allusions too literally: Watchmen isn't a Christian allegory, and Kovacs is neither Christ nor anti-Christ. We can read him figuratively as sacrificial victim, and note the Biblical parallels that the book plainly asks us to draw, but the limits of the allegorical reading should be pretty obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:13 am 
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I agree RLS.
THere are plenty of christian allusions and symbols in Watchmen. More have been pointed out in this thread than I dreamed when I started it.

But I certainly don't think Moore intended Watchmen to be read ONLY as christian allegory. The work is far to complex and rich to be limited to any one reading, I think.

It is fun, and illuminating, however, to find all these different bits.

saint


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:35 am 
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Kingmob wrote:
I see the obvious Roman influence. I see nothing of the Egyptian in Nazism.


well they were similar at one point at least: anti semitism.

however, check that pic:

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/ARCH/ge ... _hall1.jpg

this is almost the same architechture used by egyptians.

and about romans, it's all in the cultural heritage: they 'copied' greeks, who copied egyptians - at least in alexander's era. let's not forget Alexandria is in Egypt, right? and he was quite a figure for romans - his wisdom, conquers and lifestyle.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:52 am 
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saint wrote:
I agree RLS.
THere are plenty of christian allusions and symbols in Watchmen. More have been pointed out in this thread than I dreamed when I started it.

But I certainly don't think Moore intended Watchmen to be read ONLY as christian allegory. The work is far to complex and rich to be limited to any one reading, I think.

It is fun, and illuminating, however, to find all these different bits.

saint

Oh, of course, there are far too many allusions and allegories in Watchmen for any one reading to suffice. But this is a pretty substantial one.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:54 am 
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Mere Being wrote:
well they were similar at one point at least: anti semitism.


Out of curiosity, what do you make of Veidt's chosen emblem as showcased on the back of his chair when Rorschach is trying for an ambush? I tell ya: a pyramid here, a "V" there -- suddenly the idea of Veidt's parents high-tailing it out of Germany circa 1939 maybe looks a little different. ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:58 am 
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Regularguy wrote:
Mere Being wrote:
well they were similar at one point at least: anti semitism.


Out of curiosity, what do you make of Veidt's chosen emblem as showcased on the back of his chair when Rorschach is trying for an ambush? I tell ya: a pyramid here, a "V" there -- suddenly the idea of Veidt's parents high-tailing it out of Germany circa 1939 maybe looks a little different. ;-)

Are you suggesting that it's a parallel to the Jews fleeing Egypt?

Interesting.

Any extra significance to that? How would it work with the themes of the novel?

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 Post subject: Shriners: Innocuous?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:01 am 
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Regularguy wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you make of Veidt's chosen emblem as showcased on the back of his chair when Rorschach is trying for an ambush?


That's a stylized Masonic compass and square.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:20 am 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Are you suggesting that it's a parallel to the Jews fleeing Egypt?


Well, more like literal Jews fleeing Germany -- if, y'know, that's supposed to look like a Star of David. As it happens, the most famous real-world Veidt to leave Germany in the '30s brought his Jewish wife along.

Quote:
Any extra significance to that? How would it work with the themes of the novel?


Well, speaking as a Jew: Daniel "Son Of A New York Banker" Dreiberg's best friend is Walter "Son Of Sylvia Glick" Kovacs; they fought crime just like Jon "My Son The Doctor" Osterman -- all of whom confronted Addie "Star Of David" Veidt over his controversial plan to save mankind with the aid of a left-wing writer named Roth.

Theme of the novel: Jews Run Everything, And Kick Ass. ;-)


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