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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:25 am 
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I feel like this conversation should be merged with the Baptism thread and the title should be changed to "Religious Allegories" or something... this could go good places, but don't want to derail this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Shriners: Innocuous?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:09 pm 
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Broken Finger wrote:
Regularguy wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you make of Veidt's chosen emblem as showcased on the back of his chair when Rorschach is trying for an ambush?


That's a stylized Masonic compass and square.

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:10 pm 
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now that'd be a question to ask alan, if rors' real name was purposely setup with 6 letters each.

that is sooooooo crazyyyyyyyyyyy

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:11 pm 
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That might be reading a little too much into it, even for me. But, it is Moore.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:42 pm 
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Regularguy wrote:
Well, speaking as a Jew: Daniel "Son Of A New York Banker" Dreiberg's best friend is Walter "Son Of Sylvia Glick" Kovacs; they fought crime just like Jon "My Son The Doctor" Osterman -- all of whom confronted Addie "Star Of David" Veidt over his controversial plan to save mankind with the aid of a left-wing writer named Roth.

IMHO that is not close enough to the Star of David for such speculations...not enough symmetries, there is basically just the symmetry about the vertical middle axis. If anything, it is vaguely similar to masonic symbols
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Last edited by holtor on Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:54 pm 
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holtor wrote:
And lots of sane people left Germany in 1939. Are you certain "Glick" is a jewish name?


It sure is.

As for the Masonic thing, I think you're maybe screwing up cause and effect: their emblem is, presumably, based on the Star of David. Quick google hit:

http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:zHi ... cd=2&gl=us


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:57 pm 
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Regularguy wrote:
It sure is.

Heh ;) I just edited the question away a second before your reply after I verified that myself. Sorry!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:57 pm 
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It says 'Star of David' to me more than it says Masonic compass.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Regularguy wrote:

Hm, that link opens up another possibility:
Quote:
Authors Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas ( "The Hiram Key") tell us that the Star was first seen in early Egypt! Recently modern science has cracked the code of the Egyptian's writings to discover what the Star symbolized. The Star of David was originally the drawing of two triangles or two pyramids. One being right side up, the other upside down. The meaning to the Egyptians will seem very familiar to masons. The upside down triangle represents darkness, the right side up one, light. So the Star's original meaning symbolized being brought from darkness to light.

Maybe it is not too far fetched to assume that Adrian got this from the original symbol. Anyone has a picture of the egyptian symbol?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:07 pm 
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Quote:
The Star of David was originally the drawing of two triangles or two pyramids. One being right side up, the other upside down. The meaning to the Egyptians will seem very familiar to masons. The upside down triangle represents darkness, the right side up one, light. So the Star's original meaning symbolized being brought from darkness to light.

God damnit, Moore. Layer after layer after layer.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:08 pm 
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All that symbolism AND it looks like an "A" and a "V".

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Hermann wrote:
All that symbolism AND it looks like an "A" and a "V".

my mind just exploded

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Casualy on the back of some chair in Karnak, no less. These Knight-Lomas guys are crackpots from what I can find; so it is unclear whether the original egyptian symbol really exists at all. But maybe that does not matter that much; it only matters if Alan Moore is into it, and he seems to be just the right guy for that kind of stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:45 am 
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More interesting info:
"Star of David: The name David in ancient Hebrew (during the time of King David) is made up of three letters "Dalet", "Vav" and "Dalet". The letter Dalet in ancient Hebrew is actually a triangle. King David used the six pointed star as his signature (the two triangles of his name). The middle letter "Vav" means six - The six pointed star. The six-points symbolize that God rules over the universe and protects us from all six directions: North, South, East, West, Up and Down. King David used this symbol in the battlefield on his shield as an omen from God."

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:08 am 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
More interesting info:
"Star of David: The name David in ancient Hebrew (during the time of King David) is made up of three letters "Dalet", "Vav" and "Dalet". The letter Dalet in ancient Hebrew is actually a triangle. King David used the six pointed star as his signature (the two triangles of his name). The middle letter "Vav" means six - The six pointed star. The six-points symbolize that God rules over the universe and protects us from all six directions: North, South, East, West, Up and Down. King David used this symbol in the battlefield on his shield as an omen from God."

Huh...that text appears to originate from the advertisement of a jeweller
http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/p-articles/star-of-david.php
It looks like they simply made up the part about David's shield themselves and got the rest from
http://judaism.about.com/od/prayersworshiprituals/f/stardavid.htm
Which, again, comes from a Rabbi and not a historian. It cannot hurt to be careful with the sources about history in that area.


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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:11 am 
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holtor wrote:
Huh...that text appears to originate from the advertisement of a jeweller

True, but that doesn't mean it's not right. Dalet is clearly related to "delta," which is a triangle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet

and Vav is the sixth letter of many ancient alphabets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_%28letter%29

Getting back to the issue at hand -- is the symbol on the back of Ozy's chair religious in anyway -- I'm gonna say a definite maybe ;)

It's seems to clarify a reason why Moore wanted Veidt's first name to begin with a "A"

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 Post subject: Christ
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:58 pm 
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[NOTE: This post was taken from the "Easter Eggs" thread. --"Curiosity Inc."]

Burgers N Borscht wrote:
This was mentioned in the Religious Allusions thread, but probably worth noting here. The blood splashed onto Rorschach, both from the butchering of the dog and from Larry (Big Figure's fat goon), is drawn symmetrically opposite that of the blood Jesus is pictured as incurring from the Spear of Destiny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Destiny

I don't think Moore/Gibbons intended to imply that Rorschach is the anti-Christ, but rather that Rorschach's views (moral objectivism) about how to deal with "wrong" is symmetrically opposite that of Jesus' view (forgiveness).

Related to this would be Walter's birth date being March 21 (the first day of spring), also marking the earliest date of Easter (the death of Jesus).


The wiki article is hosting a picture that is incorrect. The spear that was used pierced Christ on his left side. The Romans would do this to pierce the heart, ensuring/confirming death of the crucified. We know the heart was pierced because the Scriptures say that "blood and water flowed". This can only have occurred had the Pericardial sinus been pierced. Yes, the pericardial sinus is an area of the heart.

Personally I don't see any "anti-Christ" imagery or allusion with Rorschach. If anything he is very much a Christ-like figure, to some degrees. Rorschach had to die so that the (new found) peace and unity would have a chance to continue. When Rorchach died so did the knowledge of what Veidt had done. That knowledge would have spun the world back into chaos, thus in a sense Rorschach carried Veidt's "sin" to his grave - just as the Scriptures say that Christ carried the sins of the world.

Christ's sacrifice on the cross, in place of man kind, was essentially the transition between the two ways God dealt with sinful mankind: Old Testament - vengeful, wrathful, sin is sin, sin is evil, evil must be punished, no 'redemption'. New Testament (after the death and resurrection of Chirst) - mercy and forgiveness, sin is still sin, Christ has paid the price and taken the punishment, mankind can be redeemed.

At Christ's second coming there will be no mercy, only war. Mankind has been given a chance for peace. Christ returns to expose the evils and bring judgement on them once and for all. Obviously Rorschach didn't return from the dead. Although, his journal is still out there with the potential to blow the whole thing apart. Veidt may not have escaped his judgement, and society may yet spiral back into chaos and war.

Everyone meeting Rorschach would likely 'see' something different in the patterns on his mask, giving insight into their own psyche, etc. Everyone who met Christ saw something different in Him. He was many things to many people, both good things and bad things depending on the persons disposition and spiritual state.

Rorschach lived in poverty and frequented places where 'regular' people wouldn't go. Christ travelled with no means of income, as a homeless person, and was often criticized for the company he kept. Rorschach was an outlaw vigilante carrying out his work "in secret" thanks to his non-descript alter ego "the sign guy" (until his arrest and unmasking of course). Christ (according to the Scriptures) was the Messiah, the Son of God, carrying out His work "in secret" until He revealed Who He really was.

Walter carried sign announcing "The End is Nigh". Christ often warned people about the coming judgement.

I'm not trying to labour a point, don't worry, just responding in kind :)

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:56 pm 
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The A/V pattern also appears on the...pot? that Veidt sees Rorschach's reflection in. Repeating. See it?
Also, does this thread mean that I have the greatest name ever? (first name starts with V, middle name with A.) I think so.

Edit: Also, triangles are like...freaking crazy. Like, they're somewhere in every religion. Pyramids=triangles=egyptian. Triangles=3 sides=Christian. Equilateral pyramid=perfect solid=LOTS of famous people like that, Plato-Kepler (an ancient greek philosopher-Christian guy who figured out our model of the solar system. I say Christian because he took his science with a heavy dose of religious fervor.)
Um...there's more...point is, everybody likes triangles. Bunches. So it could really come from anywhere. Oh and of course all the star of david stuff that's been said, so that covers Judaism. Let's see, the only major religion I left out was Islam, and I don't know so much about them. Anyone feel like finding some reason they like triangles?
Also 3=prime, second prime, 2=prime, first prime, yaddah yaddah. I could go on all day. 3 points on Veidt's A's and V's...

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
...but Walter was born on 3/21/1940, and March 21st is the first date on which Easter can occur...

death of Jesus, birth of Walter

All this is not to imply that Walter is Satan. Walter/Rorschach represents punishment of bad without exception (moral objectivism). Jesus embodies forgiveness for even the most heinous actions.

By the way, Easter in 1940 fell on March 24. Which means the death of Jesus (Good Friday) would have been 3 days before ........March 21 :D :D :D

Wow, what a coincidence :roll:

Lord Ruthven, thanks for the interesting info. But clearly, the location of the Spear of Destiny is usually illustrated on the right chest.

I only post this fact because of another thread discussing that others, including Gibbons?, feel there are no religious allusions in Watchmen. Bunk.

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 Post subject: Re: Religious Allusions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:07 pm 
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I didn't see this mentioned so sorry if this is something old we all knew, but when Veidt catches the bullet he has blood on his palms like Jesus.

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