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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:11 pm 
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[NOTE: This was taken from the "Musings about Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan" thread. It spun wildly off-topic after this point and a great deal of thought was put into the posts to follow, so I split the topic. --"Curiosity Inc."]

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Veidt's behind-the-scenes manipulation notwithstanding, it is ultimately the media that forces Dr. Manhattan into exile. It is the journalists who hound Dr. Manhattan at every turn, asking for answers and attempting to find the truth, forcing Doc to leave and thus pushing the world closer to WWIII.


I'm not sure you can leave Veidt out of that equation so easily, Mr. C. If Manhattan is Science, then surely Adrian is Government, with the media existing solely as a functionary, not unlike it does in our own reality.

If you, like me, are partial to this reading, then perhaps I can interest you in a little Rorschach as Religion?

Rorschach's black and white morality is Religion, ignoring outside influence, ready to chase its tail up its backside before considering another view.

The ultimate corporate bureaucrat, all business and PR spin, Adrian Veidt is Government.

Dr. Manhattan, with his propensity for research for the sake of knowledge, used as a tool of the military, is Science.

Tempering, and distracting, Science with its physical and emotional charms, Laurie is Art.

Art's other lover, quiet and unassuming one moment, brash, brave, and daring the next, is Mr. Daniel Dreiberg as Literature.

I don't know what the fuck Blake is.

Oh, how about this: Just like his namesake William Blake, the Comedian is Madness, sometimes known as Chaos.

Yeah? Or *pbbttt*


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Broken Finger wrote:
Rorschach's black and white morality is Religion, ignoring outside influence, ready to chase its tail up its backside before considering another view.
I don't quite agree. "Religion" implies that Rorschach believes in or speaks for a God and Rorschach emphatically denies any notion of a higher power. No, Rorschach is not religion; he is Belief. He is Zealotry. He is what happens when someone devotes himself mind, body and soul to an ideal.

Remember, zealous atheists and zealous criminals are every bit as real as zealous Christians and zealous Muslims.

Broken Finger wrote:
The ultimate corporate bureaucrat, all business and PR spin, Adrian Veidt is Government.
Again, I don't quite agree. Maybe I'm just being too literal, but I think that in Watchmen, the government represents the government.

No, Veidt represents Money. He represents Economy and the corporate world. He's a pretty face and a charismatic personality, buying and conquering everything he needs and wants with no regard for ethics or human life, all in the name of what he considers a better world for the pampered and somnambulent public.

Broken Finger wrote:
Dr. Manhattan, with his propensity for research for the sake of knowledge, used as a tool of the military, is Science.

Tempering, and distracting Science with its physical and emotional charms, Laurie is Art.

Art's other lover, quiet and unassuming one moment, brash, brave, and daring the next, is Mr. Daniel Dreiberg as Literature.
Very interesting. The "Literature" comparison is especially interesting, given Dreiberg's academic background and his enchantment with old fantasy stories.

Laurie, I would argue, is herself a work of art. She's a clay statue, molded by external forces to express a certain message and to fit a certain purpose.

Broken Finger wrote:
Oh, how about this: Just like his namesake William Blake, the Comedian is Madness, sometimes known as Chaos.
No, I think that the Comedian represents Military. He represents the armies, the weapons and the tactics that countries use to defend themselves and to attack others. He is aware of his purpose and aware of his power, though -- like all soldiers -- he is but a man. He is fallible and flawed, with the needs of all men (*coughsexcough*). The Comedian is confident and proud, but ultimately crumbles at the sight of a superior power.

How's that sound?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
He is Zealotry. He is what happens when someone devotes himself mind, body and soul to an ideal.


I'll accept Zealotry. I might argue that the two terms, in this instance, are synonymous, but, for the sake of weaker constitutions, I'll allow it. (tee-hee)

C. Incorporated wrote:
Maybe I'm just being too literal, but I think that in Watchmen, the government represents the government.[


In the story itself, sure. Perhaps, instead of government, we substitute the word Control. Like Alexander before him, Adrian ultimately desires control.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Aspects of Adrian definitely represent government, or at least the role of government in preserving the "greater good," sometimes through morally ambiguous actions. His decision to attack New York is a direct parallel to Truman's decision to drop the atom bomb on Japan.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:10 pm 
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Adrian could be "Authority."

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:25 am 
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I think I was attempting to equate the characters in Watchmen with something akin to the Seven Liberal Arts, seven being the number usually associated with the Justice League. I thought that it could certainly follow that The Big Seven of the League, combined with their Charlton-inspired analogs, might be inspired by these Big Concepts.

Researching the Liberal Arts (which, admittedly, didn't go any further than the Wikipedia page) it turns out that, the classic Seven Liberal Arts (grammar, dialectic, rhetoric and geometry, arithmetic, astronomy, music) have evolved into what I believe to be generally accepted as the more modern liberal arts of theology, art, literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science.

That's eight Liberal Arts, but as the graffito so famously says, "ONE IN EIGHT GO MAD", so maybe I'm still on to something.

Half of these I've already named, and I'm sticking to my original assessments:

Theology: Rorschach

Art: Laurie

Literature: Dan

Science: Jon

Now, if we accept that "the eight" are the same eight that appear at the first ever meeting of the proposed Crimebusters, then that leaves us with Metropolis, Veidt, Blake, and Janey Slater. However, since Janey was never a costumed vigilante, I've opted to replace her with Nite Owl I, which makes more sense to me anyway.

Adrian, with all of his triangles, and his triumph of the human spirit over nature, becomes Mathematics. Math is completely man-made, and has allowed us, through geometry in particular, to conquer our surroundings and build incredible monuments as a testament to that.

Hollis Mason is History, for many reasons, the least of which is his impending murder.

Edward Blake becomes Philosophy, trying to hide his own feelings of inadequacy and fear, or, if you prefer, make sense of his world, with words. His ultimate philosophy is codified into his symbolic shield, which is the smiley face.

Which leaves us with Metropolis as Language. Perhaps he was bi-lingual? Shit, I hate for this to totally fall apart at the end here, but I'm stuck with that one.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:46 pm 
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First of all, it's anyone's guess who the "one" in eight is. My guess would be Blake.

As for that problem with Cpt. Metropolis. Hurm...

Well, he's hard to categorize since he doesn't really do much, compared to the other characters. His only contribution of any value was to identify the troubles that the country faces and propose a solution to those problems. There was a discussion about the merits of this plan. Many rejected it, but one became an ardent believer. Sounds like Philosophy to me.

That leaves Eddie Blake as Language. Understandable, since he's probably the most expressive character in the book. The man had no brain-to-mouth filter; if he felt or thought it, he expressed it through the most accurate word, action or image. In fact, the written language is simply a series of symbols, so it's appropriate that Watchmen's signature symbol came from the Comedian.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:30 am 
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The statistical statement in question is one that Moore demonstrated a penchant for around that time, having no doubt unearthed this snippet during the legendary voluminous research he undertakes for his projects and referencing it again when the opportunity arose:
Faced with the inescapable fact that human existence is mad, random and pointless, one in eight of them crack up and go stark slavering buggo!
~ The Joker, Batman:The Killing Joke

Of the eight WATCHMEN characters already alluded to herein this thread, Kovacs, Blake and Veidt most readily and convincingly fall within this category of craziness; I guess it's down to personal interpretation as to which of the three you deem most deserving, there are valid arguments for all.

Notwithstanding that it can be seen as a direct reference to any one of several individual characters who exhibit extreme personality traits, the subliminally graffitied message is an all-encompassing commentary on the general state of humanity as a whole in Jokeresque fashion. Most telling is the post 11/2 update informing us that the probabilistic likelihood of madness has now substantially increased to being just one in three. Appropriately daubed at the scene of Veidt's solution, I've read this as being a direct reference to increased instances of mental collapse among the populace wrought by the psychic shockwave emitted from that very spot.

Whether or not his deception is subsequently exposed aside, Veidt's efforts may have brought the world back from the brink of holocaust... but at what cost?
I personally like to think that this increase in nutters gives rise to an army of emotionally damaged Rorschach and Comedian wannabes runnin' around just to fuck up Veidt's utopia. That'd sure piss him off! ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:03 am 
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In my opinion, Dan Dreiberg & Laurie Juspeczyk should be considered a single entity: Sexuality, or more specifically, "Sexual Fantasy". Calling them "Art" & "Literature" just give them more credits than they deserve (no offense intended).

Adrian symbolises "Humanism" to me, but I guess that's too much of a personal bias on my part. And I think "Dogmatism" fits Rorschach best.

(God I sounded damn pretentious lol)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Writer Of Wrongs wrote:
The statistical statement in question is one that Moore demonstrated a penchant for around that time, having no doubt unearthed this snippet during the legendary voluminous research he undertakes for his projects and referencing it again when the opportunity arose:
Faced with the inescapable fact that human existence is mad, random and pointless, one in eight of them crack up and go stark slavering buggo!
~ The Joker, Batman:The Killing Joke


I didn't know that. That is a disturbing little piece of info. I'm not a big fan of The Killing Joke, and I suppose as a consequence never noticed that line being used in both books.

Nostalgia wrote:
(God I sounded damn pretentious lol)


I didn't agree with anything you said, but you didn't sound like you were pretending at all. Ideas and fresh insights are always welcome, as far as I am concerned.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:09 am 
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Clearly, Dollar Bill must represent Comedy.

And Tragedy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:40 am 
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Broken Finger wrote:
[NOTE: This was taken from the "Musings about Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan" thread. It spun wildly off-topic after this point and a great deal of thought was put into the posts to follow, so I split the topic. --"Curiosity Inc."]

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Veidt's behind-the-scenes manipulation notwithstanding, it is ultimately the media that forces Dr. Manhattan into exile. It is the journalists who hound Dr. Manhattan at every turn, asking for answers and attempting to find the truth, forcing Doc to leave and thus pushing the world closer to WWIII.


I'm not sure you can leave Veidt out of that equation so easily, Mr. C.


Especially since Veidt *owns* the newsmagazine in question. His behind-the-scenes manipulation can't be separated from the journalist hounding Doc; it consists of having that journalist work for Veidt.


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