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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:45 pm 
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DCR wrote:
Elaborate, please.

Well in chapter nine Doctor Manhattan gains a newfound respect for human life. Therefore, at the end he doesn't want Rorschach to go and make everyone's death useless by telling everyone about Veidt's plan and starting the cold war again.

About the framing, Veidt has Moloch's place bugged. That's how he knew about the Comedian's knowledge of his plan. Rorschach told Moloch to leave a meeting time in a specific trash can if he had any more information. Veidt heard this and made one up himself. Then he called the police so they would show up at the correct time and arrest Rorschach with extreme prejudice.

With extreme prejudice wasn't necessary but I guess I thought it sounded cool.

Also, Veidt fakes his own assassination to cover himself. Same reason he framed Rorschach.

Both play into Rorschach's mask killer theory which puts him on the wrong track because it is not correct. The assassination attempt also clears Veidt of suspicion.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Ah. Shame on me, I forgot the bugging thing. lk rt,jbn <- bangs head on keyboard.

And yea, I must admit, grudgingly, that Veidt covers his tracks beautifully by framing RS + faking his assassination, and being that control-freak he is it does make sense after all.
(Or, rather, I admit it being embarrassed, but happily. Coz I like it when things fall into place.)

As for the Doc ... Nah. But ok, probably it's not a plot-hole but just me not buying it. To think Rorschach's claims could pose any danger to Veidt's new utopia is just utter stupidity. Is the Doc stupid?


Anyway, thanks for patiently explaining to me! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Godziller66 wrote:
DCR wrote:
Elaborate, please.

Well in chapter nine Doctor Manhattan gains a newfound respect for human life. Therefore, at the end he doesn't want Rorschach to go and make everyone's death useless by telling everyone about Veidt's plan and starting the cold war again.



See, this part still bugs me, too. The Doc respects human life again -- so he goes and kills Rorschach.

1. What little credibility Rorschach ever had with anyone probably went out the window with the arrest/imprisonment, the public release of his true identity, and his landlady's accusations. People thought he was crazy before; who would listen to him now? Especially if it's his word against Golden Boy Adrian Veidt. Really, would it be any kind of question at all?

2. Once again, the sticky wicket: how did anyone expect Rorschach to get back? Walking? Or was the Doc pre-emptively getting rid of Rorschach so he wouldn't have to also get rid of Dan and maybe Laurie later?

3. The Doc told Veidt he neither condemned nor condoned his actions. If that were really true -- especially considering what he tells him later -- he would just walk away without doing anything at all. Nothing to stop the plan; nothing to protect the plan.

4. Manhattan tells Veidt, "Nothing ever ends." He knew the peace wouldn't last. What Veidt's "achieved" is just as impermanent as that of his namesake, Ozymandias. (And while Moore uses lines from the Shelley sonnet in the GN, Horace Smith's sonnet is also telling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias) So, from a cosmic point of view, what's the point of killing Rorschach?

5. I can't argue with the thought that Manhattan was basically putting Rorschach out of his misery. Think of it: he's spent his life punishing the wicked on behalf of the innocent. Veidt comes along and just kills thousands, regardless of what they've done. And that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as Rorschach's issues go. The hell of it is, just like the citizens who'd gathered to stop the fight just before the squid went splat, Rorschach had been on the path to finding his humanity again.

Er, I had more, but the reply feature's gone wonky on me, so y'all have lucked out. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:47 am 
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Janx wrote:
3. The Doc told Veidt he neither condemned nor condoned his actions. If that were really true -- especially considering what he tells him later -- he would just walk away without doing anything at all. Nothing to stop the plan; nothing to protect the plan.
In two years of moderating this forum, I've seen all kinds of interpretations and questions about the ending. I've seen (more than any sane man should) conundrums on the subject resolved and reasoned over. But this one is new to me.

From the gut, I'd say that Dr. Manhattan was merely saying that to assuage whatever guilt Ozymandias had, much as he did when he neglected to tell Veidt about Rorschach's murder. But honestly, I don't know.

Janx wrote:
The hell of it is, just like the citizens who'd gathered to stop the fight just before the squid went splat, Rorschach had been on the path to finding his humanity again.
What? No, no, no.

The whole reason why Rorschach demanded to die was precisely because he couldn't change. He couldn't compromise, nor could he accept the hypocrisy of his beliefs (lauding Truman for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, while demonizing Veidt for the fifth-dimensional cephalopod).

To be a human is to be fallible and flawed. Rorschach would sooner die than accept that his morality was either. So he did. Therefore, he didn't die while finding his humanity, he died to stop finding his humanity.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:41 am 
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Just thought I'd bump this thread to share a quotation I stumbled upon recently. Found it in chapter 8 of From Hell, funnily enough:

"Gods and beasts, that is what our world is made of." It was Adolf Hitler who said that.

Quite a "Rorschach" sentiment from someone Rorschach abhorred, don't you think? Food for thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Just thought I'd bump this thread to share a quotation I stumbled upon recently. Found it in chapter 8 of From Hell, funnily enough:

"Gods and beasts, that is what our world is made of." It was Adolf Hitler who said that.

Quite a "Rorschach" sentiment from someone Rorschach abhorred, don't you think? Food for thought.


The quotation does seem to fit with Moore's interpretation of the world, the only thing I can think off is that Moore tried to communicate us that Rorschach somehow "left" his crazyness when he saw the world for what it was.

But I'm not really sure about that :|

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Gods? No. Beasts? Probably. I think if the quote were more along the lines of "Men and beasts, that is what the world is made of," then it would fit Rorschach's views accurately.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:53 am 
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WJK wrote:
Gods? No. Beasts? Probably. I think if the quote were more along the lines of "Men and beasts, that is what the world is made of," then it would fit Rorschach's views accurately.


Principally, though, they're both saying that there is an absolute low and an absolute high. It's just restating the black and white world view (although, man and beasts does have a bit more of a middle ground, I suppose.), but I think it's more who Rory's MAYBE agreeing with than what he's actually saying. Either that or I completely missed a point. I'm a bit tired.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:34 pm 
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AmongstFoundations wrote:
Principally, though, they're both saying that there is an absolute low and an absolute high. It's just restating the black and white world view (although, man and beasts does have a bit more of a middle ground, I suppose.), but I think it's more who Rory's MAYBE agreeing with than what he's actually saying. Either that or I completely missed a point. I'm a bit tired.


Nice, never saw it that way.

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