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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:28 pm 
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I assume this thread is just generally about Rorschach.

Anyway, I feel like this case is a prime example of why Rorschach's no gray areas policy just doesn't work.

(not that we didn't already know that)

http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr ... g_murder/1

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:06 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
Anyway, I feel like this case is a prime example of why Rorschach's no gray areas policy just doesn't work.
How so? I'm not really sure what that article proves except that the girl in question is totally fucked up.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:12 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Godziller66 wrote:
Anyway, I feel like this case is a prime example of why Rorschach's no gray areas policy just doesn't work.
How so? I'm not really sure what that article proves except that the girl in question is totally fucked up.

Would Rorschach kill the fifteen year old girl? Does she deserve to be killed? Certainly he would kill a forty year old man who did this.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:58 am 
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All interesting questions, Godziller. For my part, I have no doubt that Rorschach would use his considerable imagination to kill that girl in the most prolonged and gruesome way possible.

Does she deserve to die? I'm willing to let the courts figure that one out, provided that it's a choice between death row and at least a few decades of imprisonment. However, it's worth noting that according to the article, she had suicidal tendencies. If she wanted to take her execution into her own hands, that'd be just fine with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
All interesting questions, Godziller. For my part, I have no doubt that Rorschach would use his considerable imagination to kill that girl in the most prolonged and gruesome way possible.

Does she deserve to die? I'm willing to let the courts figure that one out, provided that it's a choice between death row and at least a few decades of imprisonment. However, it's worth noting that according to the article, she had suicidal tendencies. If she wanted to take her execution into her own hands, that'd be just fine with me.

Yeah I think it raises some interesting ethical questions. It just doesn't quite sit right with me that she would be thrown into an adult prison for the rest of her life. (She isn't going to be executed) She doess appear to be a cold blooded killer but she might be mentally ill.

Anyway, your answer concerning Rorschach surprised me because I can't picture Rorschach killing someone that young but yeah he would probably do it.

EDIT: I looked at the updated page and apparently she listed one of her hobbies as killing. All very strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:02 pm 
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People Must Be Told. wrote:
Great insight; loving the Sweet Chariot /GOPAIN symbolism. In similar 'precursor of fate' fashion, concrete block 15 that accompanies Jon Osterman into oblivion inside the IF chamber is also the same shade of green.


People Must Be Told. wrote:
To wrap up on the subject of the wrapper shown in detail being discarded among the Antarctic wastes as depicted at XI.3.7: not only is it possessed of a strange, despairing skull-like quality, a Munch-esque image, but it also bears an uncanny resemblance to the object (an item of clothing, presumably) appearing alongside Veidt at the climactic end of his Road to Damascus conversion shown at XI.10.7.


As for Jon Osterman, and block (#15), it is also the tie-in to Rorschach’s transformation, and the Black Freighter story. In the Supplement to Ch.V, the title of the article is "A Man On Fifteen Dead Men’s Chests", which is a play on words to the pirate song. I don’t believe that the #15 itself has any significance, but only that it is the number used in the song (Yo ho ho, and a bottle of rum). I had tried to tie-in Adrian to the number 15 separately before, but couldn’t find any direct reference, only to relate him to the allegory of the “Marooned” freighter character.

For Dr M. and Rorschach, the #15 is how I equate them as parallel characters in “Watchman”, as by their transformations. With Osterman (IV. Pgs 7-8), he is locked into chamber #15 because of the safety feature (an ironic flaw/mistake), and asks Prof. Glass what happened to the other fourteen blocks. He is disintegrated with block #15, and is transformed into Dr. Manhattan, a being of Quantum Physics, of which has its own existential connotations.

With Rorschach’s case (VI.18.1-4+), Blair Roche was the wrong girl kidnapped (a mistake). Kovacs puts fourteen people into the hospital needlessly, but the 15th informant gives him the name of Gerald Grice. After discovering what happened to Roche, his view of the world has been transformed into his own existential philosophy. Osterman entered chamber #15, and was reborn as Dr. Manhattan. Kovacs followed the lead given by informant #15, and was reborn as Rorschach.

On the road to Damascus, Viedt comes to his revelations after eating a ball of hashish. His view of the world is through hallucinations about Kings and Destiny, of which has nothing to do with existentialism. Dr. M and Rorschach came into being by chance and accident, while Veidt to Ozymandias came into being by choice… just like the marooned sailor who chose to tie up Fifteen corpses, and sail home to enact his flawless plan.

In trying to connect the revelations between Veidt, Dr.M, and Rorschach, the Sweet Chariot wrapper motif in Veidt’s hallucination (XI.10.7) is a good connection for Rorschach. In a similar fashion, Veidt pretty much looks like Dr. M on Mars in that panel. Especially on (IV.20.4) where Dr. M talks about no longer wanting to look at long dead stars, while Veidt listens for the sounds of long dead kings.

Finally, in keeping with the Sweet Chariot/Elijah allegory for Rorschach, It is Dr. M (a new or future God) who kills (raptures) Rorschach in the snow, just like it is God who raptures Elijah to heaven to spare him from the upcoming tribulations.

Food for Thought... Sorry for the late replay!

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Last edited by People Must Be Told. on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:37 pm 
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...and as Janey Slater accuses Jon of chasing jailbait Laurie, she asks "How old is she, 14, 15"? (IV.18.2) For the record, Laurie was 16, one year older than Daddy!

...Adrian buys his island in 1970 for his researches (XI.24.3), so it takes 15 years for him to prepare his plan. He also tells Jon and Laurie during their visit at Karnak in '75 that technology has lept forward in the last 15 years (IV.21.4).

..."Under the Hood" was published in 1962, and Hollis writes that he allowed Drieberg to take his name upon retirement (Ch.3 supplement. Pg4). Dreiberg retires because of the Keene Act of 1977... 15 years later

...The Hiroshima bomb was dropped at 15 minutes after 8AM. The TIME cover of the frozen watch is at 8:15 (V.24.7)... the moment that the Atomic Bomb changed our view of the world!!! HAHAHA
-----------------------------------------

Hey if anyone can find more #15 references, go for it!!! At least I'm not So Impotent anymore... Very important!

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
SilkOwl wrote:
Oe thing I don't reall get about the ending is that when Rorschach leaves because he wants to tell everybody it was Viedt who did this, how was he gonna get back? He can't take the owlship because it was still being repaired, also he doesn't know how to fly it. He can't walk back because he probably would've died from forstbite. Also he dropped off his joural at the post office saying that it was Viedt so, why would he need to go back?

From the moment that he decided to blow the lid off Veidt's scheme, he may as well have ended his sentences with "...or die trying," because I think that's exactly what he was always planning to do. He dropped off the journal at the New Frontiersman because he knew -- just as the Comedian did -- that he wasn't going to take on Veidt and live to tell about it.

But to answer your questions, that wasn't enough for Rorschach. He could only ever be satisfied if he spent every breath he had trying to punish what he thought was evil. Refusing to compromise or give up, right until he died trying.


That scene reminded me, bizarrely (or not at all), of the play Oedipus the King. I remember coming to the conclusion that, for Oedipus, finding the truth and obtaining it is much more important than what that truth is. He becomes obsessed with hunting down the truth and revealing it to everyone, even if it destroys him to do so (which it does). Same for Rorschach/Walter-his principles come before everything else, even if they're uselessly doomed to never being achieved, or even if they lead him straight into the jaws of death; which they do. It doesn't matter if his quest to reveal the truth is useless and futile, the fact remains that he must try, that he must persevere and uphold these principles to the end. Admirable and tragic, really. I do believe though that is is Walter that weeps and Rorschach that bellows "DO IT!" when he takes his face off though.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:13 pm 
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Can anyone tell me why Osterman killed Rorschach?

I mean, looking at the novel from the outside, like a normal grown up person, I can totally see why Moore lets Rorschach die.

But as a nerd living in the story I don't really get it.

edit: Veidt doesn't mind that Rorschach is on his way to Usa to tell the people. Why does Osterman?


(If this has been discussed before I'd love a link.)


Last edited by DCR on Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Osterman killed Rorschach to prevent him from exposing Veidt's plan, thus undoing the peace that thousands were massacred for.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Ah yea, I edited my post too late.

Rorschach posed no danger to Veidt's plan. No one was going to believe him. (Apart from the usual 'conspiracy freaks', of course.)

There was no need to kill him.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:50 pm 
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First of all, why take the chance?

Secondly, it's not exactly a secret that Rorschach had a monstrous death wish. Remember, Rorschach was begging Dr. Manhattan to deliver him from this world where humanity could only be saved with lies and compromises. He simply couldn't bear living any longer, and so asked Dr. Manhattan to kill him. And Doc put Kovacs out of his misery.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:03 pm 
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While we're talking about Rorschach's death, is it me or is Dr Manhattan at his most emotional when he teleports Rorschach at the beginning of the film? I love that moment, it definitely has shades of Once and Future King - in T. H. White's vision, Merlin lives his life backwards, sort of like the mental regression aspect of the Fitzgerald's Benjamin Button but also with foreknowledge of the future, mourning his friends as he meets them. So instead of the book's Dr M smiling in the knowledge of what is destined to happen between Laurie and Dan, the film has him emotionally bid farewell when we first see him and Rorschach together. Beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:34 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
While we're talking about Rorschach's death, is it me or is Dr Manhattan at his most emotional when he teleports Rorschach at the beginning of the film? I love that moment, it definitely has shades of Once and Future King - in T. H. White's vision, Merlin lives his life backwards, sort of like the mental regression aspect of the Fitzgerald's Benjamin Button but also with foreknowledge of the future, mourning his friends as he meets them. So instead of the book's Dr M smiling in the knowledge of what is destined to happen between Laurie and Dan, the film has him emotionally bid farewell when we first see him and Rorschach together. Beautiful.

Doc has a small voice in that scene, that's true. (In the book, this is the only scene when we see him angry.)

Heh, and what differnt folks find in that movie... when Doc kills Rorschach, after the second "DO IT!" I can see him rolling his eyes.

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Rorschach was begging Dr. Manhattan to deliver him from this world where humanity could only be saved with lies and compromises. He simply couldn't bear living any longer, and so asked Dr. Manhattan to kill him. And Doc put Kovacs out of his misery.

Hm.

Just now it has occurred to me that Doc M. doesn't do any saving or killing unless s/o tells him to.

So, yea, it does make sense. Rorschach begs for it, and Doc complies.
But why did he follow Rorschach in the first place? No one told him to do that, and why would he care what becomes of humanity?

Ah well, I feel it's a minor plot hole, and I'll leave it at that (unless s/o comes up with a perfect idea why Doc wants to see
Rorschach dead. Perhaps because he creeps Laurie out...)


Another of those minor plot holes (dunno who mentioned it, but I think it's somewhere at this board) is Veidt faking his assassination and framing Rorschach. One of the two would have been enough. Unless he foresaw Rorschach leaving prison soon again, and then: why bother with the framing at all?

Heh, and while I'm at it: how exactly did he do it; the framing? How did he know Rorschach was in touch with Moloch?
You think he monitored the old man?
Or did he monitor Rorschach?

Hey, those things MATTER. At least to a nerd. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:36 pm 
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DCR wrote:
AYBGerrardo wrote:
While we're talking about Rorschach's death, is it me or is Dr Manhattan at his most emotional when he teleports Rorschach at the beginning of the film? I love that moment, it definitely has shades of Once and Future King - in T. H. White's vision, Merlin lives his life backwards, sort of like the mental regression aspect of the Fitzgerald's Benjamin Button but also with foreknowledge of the future, mourning his friends as he meets them. So instead of the book's Dr M smiling in the knowledge of what is destined to happen between Laurie and Dan, the film has him emotionally bid farewell when we first see him and Rorschach together. Beautiful.

Doc has a small voice in that scene, that's true. (In the book, this is the only scene when we see him angry.)

Heh, and what differnt folks find in that movie... when Doc kills Rorschach, after the second "DO IT!" I can see him rolling his eyes.

Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Rorschach was begging Dr. Manhattan to deliver him from this world where humanity could only be saved with lies and compromises. He simply couldn't bear living any longer, and so asked Dr. Manhattan to kill him. And Doc put Kovacs out of his misery.

Hm.

Just now it has occurred to me that Doc M. doesn't do any saving or killing unless s/o tells him to.

So, yea, it does make sense. Rorschach begs for it, and Doc complies.
But why did he follow Rorschach in the first place? No one told him to do that, and why would he care what becomes of humanity?

Ah well, I feel it's a minor plot hole, and I'll leave it at that (unless s/o comes up with a perfect idea why Doc wants to see
Rorschach dead. Perhaps because he creeps Laurie out...)


Another of those minor plot holes (dunno who mentioned it, but I think it's somewhere at this board) is Veidt faking his assassination and framing Rorschach. One of the two would have been enough. Unless he foresaw Rorschach leaving prison soon again, and then: why bother with the framing at all?

Heh, and while I'm at it: how exactly did he do it; the framing? How did he know Rorschach was in touch with Moloch?
You think he monitored the old man?
Or did he monitor Rorschach?

Hey, those things MATTER. At least to a nerd. :mrgreen:

Did you read the book? I'm not trying to be mean but it's something I have to ask.

You might have only read it once and missed those things. To be fair, I didn't even realize that Rorschach's mask moved the first time I read it. Even though it's explicitly stated at one point.

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Last edited by Godziller66 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:38 pm 
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What exactly in my post makes you wonder?

Where in the book are we told how Veidt finds out about Rorschach's maildrop?

Where in the books is explained why he fakes is assassination AND has Rorschach framed?


Last edited by DCR on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:39 pm 
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DCR wrote:
What exactly in my post makes you wonder?

Well all of your "plot holes" are filled right in the book.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Elaborate, please.


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