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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:35 am 
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While I have to admit that the Comedian's reply to Nite Owl II's question on what happened to the American Dream sounded really cool, I've been struggling to understand what exactly did he mean by that.

From what I understand, the American Dream refers to the ideal that one can achieve success and wealth through hard work.

So exactly how did it came true during the Keene Riot? :?:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:43 am 
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Nostalgia wrote:
While I have to admit that the Comedian's reply to Nite Owl II's question on what happened to the American Dream sounded really cool, I've been struggling to understand what exactly did he mean by that.

From what I understand, the American Dream refers to the ideal that one can achieve success and wealth through hard work.

So exactly how did it came true during the Keene Riot? :?:


well im not american so if i get this completley wrong then thats why, that said alan moore is english so maybe my perspective is not too bad for understanding the jist of the line, america is supposed to be a country of liberty (where individual choice is the most important thing, ie you can choose your own doctors, wether to have medical insurance(although this is a bit silly imo) etc.) the logical conclusion of libery is anarchy where every man is his own ruler (this is the ultimate form of liberty) and the keene riots were a country decended into anarchy

as i said this is just my opinion and probably wrong i would like ti know what do u and others think?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:35 am 
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Curious, I looked up the term in Wikipedia...

In 1931, James Truslow Adams wrote:
"The American Dream is that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position."


It probably meant different things to Nite Owl II and the Comedian. :-) It's essentially a satirical jab at the American way of life from Mr. Moore. It's a classic line, and I smile every time I read it.

Though this is also linked from the Wiki article

Thomas Wolfe said, "…to every man, regardless of his birth, his shining, golden opportunity ….the right to live, to work, to be himself, and to become whatever thing his manhood and his vision can combine to make him."

The Comedian is a self-made man. A horrible one, maybe. But he's made his own choices to get where he was in his world. His eyes were open. Dan is a little bit more of a Martyr-figure. He would have like to have made other choices in life, but didn't.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:29 am 
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As the first proud U.S. delegate for this thread, I would say that the James Truslow Adams quote that Soupy posted there is near perfection. What makes the Comedian's line both funny/scary though is that he is right in describing himself as a product of the American Dream, albeit a twisted example. His meteoric rise from a nobody-punk who beat up thugs on the docks to becoming a war hero and government operative/killer who rubs elbows with powerful big-wigs is something that happens "only in America."

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:36 am 
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waylayer wrote:
As the first proud U.S. delegate for this thread, I would say that the James Truslow Adams quote that Soupy posted there is near perfection. What makes the Comedian's line both funny/scary though is that he is right in describing himself as a product of the American Dream, albeit a twisted example. His meteoric rise from a nobody-punk who beat up thugs on the docks to becoming a war hero and government operative/killer who rubs elbows with powerful big-wigs is something that happens "only in America."

Yes. When The Comedian says, "you're lookin' at it," he's referring to himself, not the riots.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:12 pm 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
waylayer wrote:
As the first proud U.S. delegate for this thread, I would say that the James Truslow Adams quote that Soupy posted there is near perfection. What makes the Comedian's line both funny/scary though is that he is right in describing himself as a product of the American Dream, albeit a twisted example. His meteoric rise from a nobody-punk who beat up thugs on the docks to becoming a war hero and government operative/killer who rubs elbows with powerful big-wigs is something that happens "only in America."

Yes. When The Comedian says, "you're lookin' at it," he's referring to himself, not the riots.


Yeah, he is saying that he is the American dream, rising from anonymoty to being a world wide "diplomat" ;) . I remember in freshman year we read Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men and the central theme is the American Dream, of getting the best you can. The Comedian is saying that he is the american dream...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:30 pm 
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cactusman_hattan wrote:
well im not american so if i get this completley wrong then thats why, that said alan moore is english so maybe my perspective is not too bad for understanding the jist of the line, america is supposed to be a country of liberty (where individual choice is the most important thing, ie you can choose your own doctors, wether to have medical insurance(although this is a bit silly imo) etc.) the logical conclusion of libery is anarchy where every man is his own ruler (this is the ultimate form of liberty) and the keene riots were a country decended into anarchy

as i said this is just my opinion and probably wrong i would like ti know what do u and others think?


I agree with you, cactus-manhattan. Blake's world-view being as harsh and as bleak as it is, it makes sense that he would point to the chaotic (as opposed to anarchic) mob and comment on their unruly behavior as the logical conclusion of liberty. Men are not capable of governing themselves and need authority; Blake's employers serve that function nicely and are the titular watchmen.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:31 pm 
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Also Eddie's morality fits into this concept of ultimate liberty perfectly. Because if every man creates himself and is his own ruler, then every man creates his own morality (or lack thereof) as well. Eddie lives by his own complex set of morals, that seem even contradictory at times. Ultimately, this could be the end result of the American dream.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:14 pm 
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Pliny wrote:
Also Eddie's morality fits into this concept of ultimate liberty perfectly. Because if every man creates himself and is his own ruler, then every man creates his own morality (or lack thereof) as well. Eddie lives by his own complex set of morals, that seem even contradictory at times. Ultimately, this could be the end result of the American dream.


That sounded more like a Nietszchean ubermensch concept than the American Dream to me...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:37 am 
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Nostalgia wrote:
Pliny wrote:
Also Eddie's morality fits into this concept of ultimate liberty perfectly. Because if every man creates himself and is his own ruler, then every man creates his own morality (or lack thereof) as well. Eddie lives by his own complex set of morals, that seem even contradictory at times. Ultimately, this could be the end result of the American dream.


That sounded more like a Nietszchean ubermensch concept than the American Dream to me...


Yeah, which is the American Dream if you consider some of the statements made earlier about ultimate liberty, that leads to the ubermensch.
...
I'd get into it more, but basically since the 70's/80's or so I'd say we're in the "laughing child"/ubermensch stage of Nietzschean societal development. You know, the 60's was the "lion" phase, tearing down the institutions and morality and stuff like that? Anyway.
See my 300 other posts where I compare Eddie to the ubermensch concept.

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