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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:49 pm 
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When Obama was elected, a candidate whose popularity among edgy types was so widespread that it could even be considered "trendy", a friend of mine who is very into pop music culture (traditionally associated with some form of rebellion) kept asking, "With such a popular leader, where is the voice of dissent?" Being a fan of Obama myself, but also a believer in the notion that the key to a healthy democracy is a voice of dissent, I kept the question in the back of my mind, knowing the answer might not be as clear cut as it has been in the past. We do live in different times, after all, and chances are that dissent today won't look the same as it did in the 60s.

Anyway, earlier today, I stumbled across this article (linked from http://www.disinfo.com):

"Britain Faces Summer of Rage"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/2 ... -recession

In short, this Summer, they're preparing for the likelihood of protests against financial institutions to end in violence. When I saw that article, it occurred to me that the primary international targets of dissent are both the financial institutions, and the role that governments play in their existence.

It's my personal belief that everyone should have at least one cause they identify with. Maybe it's the environment, maybe its censorship, whatever. Mine has always been transparency. I was thrilled when government transparency became the first issue Obama tackled on the first day of his presidency. I was also recently interested in the Yes We Can-ism of the occupation of the New School, and again when NYU was the subject of a similar occupation. I found it striking that again, the main thrust of their dissent was the subject of transparency.

This made me think, the government is supposed to be watching out for us, protecting us from the abuses from banks and investors, etc. But, who is watching them? In other words, "Who watches the watchmen"? Over the 20th Century, we saw a progressive peeling back of the layers of many institutions: the media (who writes the news, and from what perspective), the environment (how are we allowed to continue jeopardizing our planet), and even things that we take for granted today like labor and employment rights, or basic civil liberties and human rights. This movement towards transparency couldn't come a second sooner.

Anyway, I just thought I'd post this as brain food. It ties in so well with the central message of Watchmen. There's always people out there who would like to make a difference, whether through art, or becoming a politician, and so on. Hopefully, some of them are on this forum, and hopefully some of them will see this and be inspired. "It would be a stronger world, a stronger loving world, to die in."


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:11 pm 
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If you want to know the voice of dissent against Obama, look no further than your local e-mail inbox:

"OBAMA a TERRORIST?
Did you know that Barack SADDAM HUSSEIN OSAMA BIN LADEN Obama is actually a TERRORIST?
He was NOT BORN IN THE UNITED STATES HE WAS BORN IN ANTARCTICA!
And I have the LOW QUALITY .JPG TO PROVE IT!
According to the Bible chapter ten verse seven lines 2-3:
"And He the Lord said that the ANTICHRIST would be born in those places REMOVED FROM THE WORLD"
Antarctica is pretty removed don't ya think!
If this isn't clear enough HIS MIDDLE NAME IS HUSSEIN LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN THE TERRORIST!
And he's also MIDDLE EASTERN!
Even though he was born in Antartica he died and was reborn in the Middle East just like Jesus except he's the ANTICHRIST!
Pass this on to EVERYONE YOU KNOW
We can still SAVE AMERICA!"

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 pm 
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BlackDoomShadow wrote:
If you want to know the voice of dissent against Obama, look no further than your local e-mail inbox:

"OBAMA a TERRORIST?
Did you know that Barack SADDAM HUSSEIN OSAMA BIN LADEN Obama is actually a TERRORIST?
He was NOT BORN IN THE UNITED STATES HE WAS BORN IN ANTARCTICA!
And I have the LOW QUALITY .JPG TO PROVE IT!
According to the Bible chapter ten verse seven lines 2-3:
"And He the Lord said that the ANTICHRIST would be born in those places REMOVED FROM THE WORLD"
Antarctica is pretty removed don't ya think!
If this isn't clear enough HIS MIDDLE NAME IS HUSSEIN LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN THE TERRORIST!
And he's also MIDDLE EASTERN!
Even though he was born in Antartica he died and was reborn in the Middle East just like Jesus except he's the ANTICHRIST!
Pass this on to EVERYONE YOU KNOW
We can still SAVE AMERICA!"


hahaha your country is crazy.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:49 pm 
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BlackDoomShadow wrote:
If you want to know the voice of dissent against Obama, look no further than your local e-mail inbox:

"OBAMA a TERRORIST?
Did you know that Barack SADDAM HUSSEIN OSAMA BIN LADEN Obama is actually a TERRORIST?
He was NOT BORN IN THE UNITED STATES HE WAS BORN IN ANTARCTICA!
And I have the LOW QUALITY .JPG TO PROVE IT!
According to the Bible chapter ten verse seven lines 2-3:
"And He the Lord said that the ANTICHRIST would be born in those places REMOVED FROM THE WORLD"
Antarctica is pretty removed don't ya think!
If this isn't clear enough HIS MIDDLE NAME IS HUSSEIN LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN THE TERRORIST!
And he's also MIDDLE EASTERN!
Even though he was born in Antartica he died and was reborn in the Middle East just like Jesus except he's the ANTICHRIST!
Pass this on to EVERYONE YOU KNOW
We can still SAVE AMERICA!"
I hear that all in Palin-voice.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:03 pm 
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[raises hand and looks around] I'm a dissenting voice.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:08 pm 
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Yeah, me too pretty much.

Come to think of it, watching the watchmen is the core of the American government coming from Greek democracies of course. Always being skeptical of those in power was true during the revolution against the British and checks and balances and whatnot, so it's quite fitting for Moore to place the story in America instead of Britain.

But remember, there's a big difference between being critical and just plain dissenting.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:30 pm 
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I am also a dissenting voice.

Obama is a Socialist and an empty suit. Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.

And to directly tie into Watchmen, it's interesting to note that Harry Reid has been trying to get the presidential term limit changed. This is frightening in the extreme. Imagine Obama for more than eight years...imagine him pulling a Watchmen Nixon.

And worst of all, Obama has no regard for human life. His stance on abortion has disgusted even the most pro-choice advocates.

He's far more dangerous than an Ozymandias could ever be.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:35 pm 
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Hahaha. Right Wing ignorance is funny :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:55 pm 
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I-Man wrote:
I am also a dissenting voice.

Obama is a Socialist and an empty suit. Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.

And to directly tie into Watchmen, it's interesting to note that Harry Reid has been trying to get the presidential term limit changed. This is frightening in the extreme. Imagine Obama for more than eight years...imagine him pulling a Watchmen Nixon.

And worst of all, Obama has no regard for human life. His stance on abortion has disgusted even the most pro-choice advocates.

He's far more dangerous than an Ozymandias could ever be.


haha you people are nuts

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:00 am 
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I-Man wrote:
Obama is a Socialist and an empty suit. Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.

And to directly tie into Watchmen, it's interesting to note that Harry Reid has been trying to get the presidential term limit changed. This is frightening in the extreme. Imagine Obama for more than eight years...imagine him pulling a Watchmen Nixon.

And worst of all, Obama has no regard for human life. His stance on abortion has disgusted even the most pro-choice advocates.

He's far more dangerous than an Ozymandias could ever be.


Fixed :D


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:21 am 
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Lacuna wrote:
I-Man wrote:
Obama is a Socialist and an empty suit. Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.

And to directly tie into Watchmen, it's interesting to note that Harry Reid has been trying to get the presidential term limit changed. This is frightening in the extreme. Imagine Obama for more than eight years...imagine him pulling a Watchmen Nixon.

And worst of all, Obama has no regard for human life. His stance on abortion has disgusted even the most pro-choice advocates.

He's far more dangerous than an Ozymandias could ever be.


Fixed :D

haha classic.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:46 am 
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I-Man wrote:
I am also a dissenting voice.

Obama is a Socialist and an empty suit. Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.

And to directly tie into Watchmen, it's interesting to note that Harry Reid has been trying to get the presidential term limit changed. This is frightening in the extreme. Imagine Obama for more than eight years...imagine him pulling a Watchmen Nixon.

And worst of all, Obama has no regard for human life. His stance on abortion has disgusted even the most pro-choice advocates.

He's far more dangerous than an Ozymandias could ever be.


you know, after seeing this:

Struggling States Look to Tax Marijuana, Porn, Prostitution: "Everything Is On the Table"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/us/01sin.html?_r=2&hp

I also had to chime in. To my knowledge, this isn't on Obama's agenda, and even though he's made some marijuana-related noises, I doubt he would pass any weed-related legislation until his second term. At risk of sounding like Rorschach or the Comedian's supposedly more reprehensible political viewpoints, I just have to say the idea of marijuana legally in the hands of the American people is terrifying to me. Just as they can't be trusted not to drunk drive, why could they be trusted to do anything responsibly with marijuana. Not only that, but I think the effects of marijuana are so different on everyone across the board that it's impossible to make any accurate statements about whether or not its use is safe from a mental or physical point of view. And although making it legal would remove the stigma of it being a "drug", it still is a gateway drug nonetheless, with much more potent psychoactive effects than either alcohol or cigarettes - our two socially-sanctioned addictions.

I do think that a lot of the war on drugs has been a sham that has resulted in jailing of people on minor offenses. And obviously, the war on drugs drives an entire business underground, thus promoting racketeering and organized crime, etc. So although it does have one upside, I think drug-related violence is potentially minor in comparison to the effects we could see if we put high grade marijuana legally in the hands of the people.

Prostitution, however, is less a threat. as we have seen in society's that either condone of prostitution or make it fully legal, there is a stigma attached with patronizing a prostitute that doesn't go away. That's not to say that the stigma couldn't be lifted, or even that there is anything inherently unethical about the transaction, assuming it is between to consenting adults of sound mind. But ultimately, rather than jeopardizing other lives, the only victims of this crime are the participants. So the benefit we see is hopefully a drop in human trafficking, which DOES exist in the USA, and is one of the most heinous of all crimes, but we also see another drop in the prison population. Most importantly, this is the kind of industry that could benefit by non-police oriented standardized industry practices, as prostitutes are often victimized by pretty much everyone in they interact with (must suck).

In any case, these are exactly the type of crimes that Watchmen's most level-headed character is referring to when he justifies his comfort with having left the vigilante business (despite the unfortunate effect on his virility). Who needs all this hardware to catch hookers and purse-snatchers? The hardware he's talking about - in all crimefighting-related comic books - is essentially a metaphor for the police and justice system. How much crime, prison, and revenue-raising problems could actually be solved by legalizing these things?

PS., Regarding Obama being a socialist, that may be true, as most highly educated left-leaners have dabbled with socialist thoughts themselves. That said, I think he's ultimately 100% a centrist. If the USA had an actual socialist party, like many European countries do, I don't think we'd see Obama on that ticket. He'd still show up as a Democrat. In any case, it is impossible to solve this financial crisis without expanding government and advocating policies that might be portrayed as socialist, depending which party lines you're watching from. Really, if you take this in light of practical and theoretical socialism, how could you make any efforts towards resolving the financial crisis without doing some things that look like socialism? I assure you that McCain would find himself being forced to deal with some of the same tough choices, especially since he would've been entering an administration with a Democrat majority in the legislature. Finally, as far as expanding term limits, that was a major way the US got through WWII and the Great Depression. With a popular leader, it is proven to have worked on at least one occasion. Obama isn't Nixon after all. The world in Watchmen looked the way it did was because of Nixon's culture of suspicion and warmongering (although given his actual foreign policy record in terms of communism, I'm not sure we would've seen the Cold War escalate to the levels it did in the GN). We need at least two consecutive Democrat terms to relieve the damage of the Bush Administration - Obama or not.

EDIT:

PPS.

I-Man wrote:
Some of the measures he's taking behind the scenes regarding military reassignments on home soil make me wonder what he's gearing up for.


I haven't heard anything about this, what's the story? Do you suspect he's preparing for some kind of civil war? Something like this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/2 ... -recession?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:11 am 
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What's funny is that the recent CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference) was going on just a block away from one of my metro stops in my area. I didn't even realize it til I saw an awful lot of people in suits and sweaters and buttons with the saying "No Left-Turn for America" inside a McDonald's I went into :| Later, I found out Rush Limbaugh was the keynote speaker. :?

What's really funny is that the next door neighborhood from where the conference is held is Dupont Circle, which is essentially, the gay cultural center of DC. :D I'd love to hear a story from one of these bozos taking a wrong turn...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:59 pm 
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Can we move this to "Talk About Anything Else"?

I thought I could avoid the right-wing nutjobs (besides Rorschach) outside of that forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:13 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Can we move this to "Talk About Anything Else"?

Ask and ye shall receive.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:16 pm 
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I do not live in the States, but I like Obama, so far. Especially his stance on Guantanamo (spelling error most likely) Bay. I don't know what he is going to do with all the inhabitants, but I admire his bold approach to current issues, and his willingness to act.
I am glad he got elected.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:16 pm 
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tbone wrote:
I do not live in the States, but I like Obama, so far. Especially his stance on Guantanamo (spelling error most likely) Bay. I don't know what he is going to do with all the inhabitants, but I admire his bold approach to current issues, and his willingness to act.
I am glad he got elected.


That is where you fail. Obama wants to bring the inhabitants of Guantanamo into U.S. prisons, and give them lawyers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:15 pm 
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WJK wrote:
tbone wrote:
I do not live in the States, but I like Obama, so far. Especially his stance on Guantanamo (spelling error most likely) Bay. I don't know what he is going to do with all the inhabitants, but I admire his bold approach to current issues, and his willingness to act.
I am glad he got elected.


That is where you fail. Obama wants to bring the inhabitants of Guantanamo into U.S. prisons, and give them lawyers.



Point taken. Thanks.
Even so it was brave of him to tackle the issue, even if his plan is flawed. Something had to be done about Guantanamo Bay, and I don't have a flawless plan so I can't really argue.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:04 pm 
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WJK wrote:
That is where you fail. Obama wants to bring the inhabitants of Guantanamo into U.S. prisons, and give them lawyers.

Just like Timothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, the Unabomber and all the other American crazies that have done what those at Gitmo are accused of doing?

I'll admit that we Americans are subpar at many things, but we're top-notch at locking people up. We've put Mohammed Salameh and his associates through due process while keeping them safely behind bars for the past 15 years. Does anyone here really think that any inmate at Guantanamo could pose a greater challenge?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:04 pm 
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well said Curiosity :)

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