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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Hi everyone. It's been a long time since I've been on the forum. I was kinda bored and thought I'd combine the comments I had about this awesome chapter in the Easter Egg thread into one separate thread. I'm just going to cut and paste from that thread. Please add tidbits that I have missed. It will help to look at the comic/book while reviewing this. -BnB

This issue has 28 pages. The panel layout is symmetric (ie the 3x3 panel layout of page 1 is the same as page 28, 2 is the same as 27, etc. Here are the page groupings with some comments:
1,28 RR reflection in first and last panels; Walter's feet in puddles in next panels
2,27 in Moloch's apartment; mirrored alternating neon glow
3,26 in Moloch's apartment; mirrored alternating neon glow
4,25 in Moloch's apartment; mirrored alternating neon glow
5,24 in Moloch's apartment;mirrored alternating neon glow
6,23 in then out of Moloch's apartment;mirrored alternating neon glow
7,22 detectives in both
8,21 newsstand in both
9,20 Black Freighter in both
10,19 Dan and Laurie in both
11,18 Rorschach journal in both
12,17 mirrored match cuts of newsstand and Black Freighter in both
13,16 Veidt
14,15 Veidt

Let's focus on the first 6 and last 6 pages that deal with Rorschach and Moloch

V.1/V.28
both pages outside Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow in 3x3 panels
V.1.1 / V.28.9 neon on; rumrunner reflection in puddle
V.1.2 / V.28.8 neon off; Rorschach's foot/feet in puddle

V.2/V.27
both pages inside Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow in 3x3 panels
V.2.1-3 / V.27.7-9 Moloch's windows
V.2.7 / V.27.3 Ror/Moloch in doorway with gun in left hand

V.3/V.26
both pages inside Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow in 3x3 panels
V.3.1-3 / V.26.7-9 stairway scenes
V.3.7-9 / V.26.1-3 doors being opened (refrig and room doors)
V.3.1 / V.26.9 top of stairs walking down / top of stairs walking up

V.4/V.25
both pages at Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow; large top panel, then 3x2 panels; both feature Rorschach and Moloch

V.5/V.24
both pages inside Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow in 3x3 panels except top row conbines 2 panels closest to the spine
V.5 Moloch in refrigerator freezing cold; V.24 Moloch dead

V.6/V.23
both at Moloch's apartment; alternating neon glow; conbined panels row 2 at spine, row 3 away from spine
V.6 begins in the apartment, then moves out of the apartment
V.23 begins out of the apartment, then moves in
V.6.last / V.23.first puddle in neon glow

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Last edited by Burgers N Borscht on Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Let's check out pages 7 and 22, which feature Detectives Fine and Bourquin. Both pages feature 3x3 panels.

Page 7 takes place in the home of Mrs. Hirsch, whose husband has murdered their two daughters. Page 22 takes place in the detectives' office. Both rooms feature the same two posters, and both posters are symmetric in the vertical plane. One of them is for the Grateful Dead poster of the album AOXOMOXOA (a pallindrome), and features a sun (like the other poster does) and skull with crossbones (a common Watchmen symbol).

V.7.4 / V.22.6 Both panels show Fine striking his lighter

Page 22, a pallindromic number, shows Blake's file number as 801108. This number is not only pallindromic, but as illustrated, is symmetric in both vertical and horizonal planes (a number such as 435534 is pallindromic but when illustrated is symmetric neither in vertical nor horizonal plane).

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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Let's look at the page 8 and page 21 pairing. Both have a 3x3 panel layout. The setting for both is the newsstand. Bernie and Bernard are shown with many TotBF cut-ins. Both pages feature a triangle symbol, but from different sources. Page 8 has the triangle within a circle symbol for an electric charging station, while 21 has the Pink Triangle benefit for Gay Women Against Rape poster from Joey.

It's my opinion that the panel V.21.8 that shows Joey with the poster is supposed to mimic the previous panel V.21.7 that shows the mariner on the shark. Take a look at the panels. The shark's head is triangular shaped, and it's jaws are the same shape and position as the saw-tooth figure on the bottom of the triangle in the poster.

I may be reaching with this next interpretation, but here goes. Let's look at panel V.21.8 again, the one where Joey is showing the poster. Moore and Gibbons highlight the capital initials of Gay Women Against Rape, spelling GWAR. An American thrash metal band began in 1985 (the year Watchmen came out) named GWAR, spelled with all capital letters. Members of GWAR confirmed to Rolling Stone that the band was actually named for the South African slang term for vagina.

Masterful work-in by Moore and Gibbons, or crazy coincindence discovered by me? I leave it entirely in your hands...


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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:59 pm 
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Let's try the page 9/20 pairing, which deals solely with the TotBF. All rows have double panels; the top and bottom have theirs at the spine, and the middle away from the spine. I guess the "Easter eggs" of these pages can from from the interpretation of what the characters and illustrations represent. We know that the mariner represents Veidt, but the four sharks surrounding him may represent Rorschach, Nite Owl II, Doc Manhattan, Silk Specter II. The main shark that almost gets the mariner may represent Rorschach, with skin "neither black nor wholly white," and "stained marble eye." Of course, the shark gets the stake in the right eye.

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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Now to the page 10 / page 19 pairing. Both pages have 3 panels on the upper and lower rows, with the middle row sporting one large panel. Dan and Laurie are featured in these pages. All but one of the panels (V.10.5) that picture Dan and Laurie together illustrate them in reflections, either in a window or mirror. I'm not sure why Moore and Gibbons chose to do this -- anyone?

Since no one else has commented, I'll take a crack at this. Of all the "heroes" in this chapter, Dan and Laurie seem the most "real." Perhaps in this chapter of symmetry, Moore and Gibbons chose to show their reflected images as similar to who they really are. I can't think of any other reason. I don't think it's a random coincidence that Moore and Gibbons did this. The setting is in two different locations.


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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Page 11 and 18 pairing. Rorschach's Journal featured in both, with 3x3 panels. Walter is holding his "face" in V.11.3 and in the symmetrical V.18.7.

Moore and Gibbons choose page 11 to acknowledge that Rorschach is based on the Charlton character, The Question. Walter is pictured forming an upside-down question mark (with his non-dominant hand), folding the menu in half, and creating the signature .RR. of Rorschach.

On page 18, we see the Jacoby letter that Veidt has planted for Rorschach. The script on the letter is angled as if written by a lefty, which Jacoby was (nice touch).

In panel V.18.6, Rorschach puts his glove on in front of the Nostalgia poster that says "Oh, how the ghost of you clings...," implying that the mask and gloves Walter wears creates the ghost of Rorschach, and that its character clings to Walter strongly.


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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:06 pm 
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The page 12 and 17 pairing features 3x3 panels of great match-cuts between the Bernies and TotBF. I'm really looking forward to seeing this put together on the final DVD. The Bernies are featured on panels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 on page 12, then on panels 2, 4, 6, 8 on page 17.

No big Easter Eggs on these pages, in my opinion. Some say that the V.12.2 showing the mariner with his hands on the cross-shaped mast is a portrayal of him like Veidt as Jesus on the cross. I think that might be a reach, but not out of the question.

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Burgers N Borscht
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Let's do the last 4 pages (13-16) together. The 13/16 pairing format is 3 panels on middle and bottom rows, with the top row sporting a double panel away from the spine. The first panel of page 13 shows Adrian putting on his cuff links, and quite possibly putting the poison capsule tucked in his sleeve. I can't prove it, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. His putting on his cuff links is a nice "link" to the last panel of the previous page where Bernard finishes with "every damned link." Gibbons illustrates the other cuff link on Adrian's glossy desk with the link's symmetrical reflection, forming an X (mark's the spot?). Adrian's wearing a yellow carnation in the same spot that the Comedian wears his yellow smiley (and the same place a cop would wear a badge -- I digress). Adrian conveniently lets his secretary walk a bit in front of him throughout the page. Skipping to page 16, I don't see any Eggs, other than a blood streak on the carnation.

Now the finale -- the center of the issue. I remember when first reading this, my daughter walked by, saw it, and said "Whoa that's cool." Certainly different than any other panel combination in the comic, the page 14/15 pairing has double panels on all rows away from the spine, and a triple panel combo vertically at the spine. Most striking (pun intended) is where Adrian strikes the assassin with the gold ashtray, and that big-ass yellow V is in the background. Adrian's right leg, along with the assassin's body, form the reflection, forming an X. The pharoah's head is relected in the pond as is the assassin's. The last panel shows the carnation blood streaked in familiar fashion.

That was fun. I'm not a big comic reader, but I've never seen or heard of a comic issue created such as this. Any discussion of "which is the best issue of Watchmen" has to include this issue, regardless of dialogue or plot content. Mr. Moore and Mr Gibbons -- a masterful piece of art.


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WJK
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:13 pm 
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neat trivia. only intrigues people even more to get the gn and read.

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t3cii
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Nice job!

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."
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Flying Tiger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:11 am 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:


In panel V.18.6, Rorschach puts his glove on in front of the Nostalgia poster that says "Oh, how the ghost of you clings...," implying that the mask and gloves Walter wears creates the ghost of Rorschach, and that its character clings to Walter strongly.




Also at the end of the GN it is the "ghost" of Rorschach in the form of his diary that, like Banquo at the feast (the fat kid eating his burger recreating the badge) will spoil the murderer's kingship...
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Flying Tiger
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:14 am 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Now to the page 10 / page 19 pairing. Both pages have 3 panels on the upper and lower rows, with the middle row sporting one large panel. Dan and Laurie are featured in these pages. All but one of the panels (V.10.5) that picture Dan and Laurie together illustrate them in reflections, either in a window or mirror. I'm not sure why Moore and Gibbons chose to do this -- anyone?



The reflections for me mean this:

emotional distance- both Dan and Laurie have emotional "shut in" issues.

both of them are completely defined an adopted persona, an alter ego, which is in a real sense a mirror image of who they really are.

mirrors are unable to be crept up on- your reflection always meets your gaze and these are both people in denial who are yet to answer honestly to the "man in the mirror" as the old poem has it

spirits in the material world

Manhattan warns Ozymandias at the end that he can turn the walls to glass. God always turns the walls to glass. Emotional layers must be penetrated if the two people are to reintegrate their personalities.
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Writer Of Wrongs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Dan and Laurie are featured in these pages. All but one of the panels (V.10.5) that picture Dan and Laurie together illustrate them in reflections, either in a window or mirror. I'm not sure why Moore and Gibbons chose to do this -- anyone?

I guess the straightforward answer would have to be that, in a chapter entitled Fearful Symmetry, whose pages have been deliberately crafted to be a mirror image of themselves throughout... the creative choice is obvious.
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