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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:03 pm 
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I'm inclined to think that Rorschach doesn't spare words or discussion on things he hasn't looked into or taken into consideration or even angsted over.

In the case of the Comedian, it's almost a repeat of his parents. There's the career soldier and, in Rorschach's words, "a bloated aging whore." So he's ready to debate the issue, even with the victim's own daughter. Perhaps Rorschach has even picked up on the implication of Laurie's hair color. In his twisted head, he had enough doubts about the attempted rape.

And that brings me to Truman and Hiroshima. Walter articulated the common argument for Hiroshima as a tangent in a paper. But I think the journal passage on "is the best we can do is fleck foam off" suggests the question was often on his mind, particularly in the days after Blake's murder. Intellectually, he could probably wrap his head around the concept of sacrificing some lives to save many more. He'd articulated it before. But emotionally, I think he struggled with the notion and when actually confronted with it, he refused to stay silent- even as someone who probably wouldn't be believed.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Nellodee wrote:
regularguy makes very good points. it´s important to understand that watchmen´s world isn´t ours. we as readers don´t even have to rely on veidt´s graphs and predictions - the story tells us that the end is nigh! have you forgotten the invasion of afghanistan, and nixon flying to his command shelter, with the "nuclear football" chained to his wrist, and getting the scientists to estimate their losses in case of a nuclear attack/counter-attack? that´s the world on the brink of armageddon.


In one way watchmen´s world isn´t ours , in an other it is. Look at the real doomsday clock: In 1985 it stood at three minutes to 12. The world WAS on the brink of armageddon. The russians HAD invaded afgahnistan. Only the details were diffrent, instaead of Doc Manhatten America had have some more nucleas weppons. (Even in WATCHMEN America had have them, enough to think about a nuclear first impact.)

The real 1985 passed by without armageddon. I think in Wathmen would happend the same - but at least there was the chance for peace without Veidts intervention. On the other hand - there were the possibility that the Russians attac America. Without Doc Manhattans as americas biggest weappon they feel strong enough to invade Afganistan and after America was weakened by the squid, why don't they destroy america and handle the alien invasion by themselves?

As "the smartest man on earth" Veidt must know that even if his plan works that the replacing the russians as enemy with aliens as enemies could only a solution for a very short time.
In the movie was it diffrent, but it won't work too. In 1985 the second World War ended just 40 years before. A lot of people could remember that time and specialy the russians had suffered. But 3 years after the end of WWII the Doomsday clock was 3 to 12.
But back to the novel: New enemy - same problem: bouth nations will produce more weappons and peace witch need an outer enemy is always fragile.
Exept ... exept you are planing to create a dictatorship. In this case a dictatorship called Utopia.

Veidt want to much to be better than his idol Alexander, he don't want to be rich because his parent leave him money, he want to show the world he can do it alone. A selfish egomaniac unfortnatly with a high IQ but without any wisdom.
In his officetower or in Karnak, his Veidt "V" is everywere, oh his shoes, chairs - i wonder if it were also on his under pants and his toilet paper! If I were rich like him I won't have my name on every spoon!

Veidt was an egomaniac and I'm sure he won't like the idea that there could be peace and he wasn't responsible. He yelled out:"I did it!" not: "We did it!" (We for the pepole who lost ther lives) or: "it works!" or: "Peace!"

I lost the topic.
Code:
Can you explain why Kovacs likes the bomb and hates the squid?

I am sure that it wasn't the bomb that he liked. He liked his father or, he lieked the unrealistically idol that his father was in his imagination and like every unloved child he wants to be like the one, from whom you want be be loved.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Randomly, my dad has the same opinion as Rorschach does on the nukes being dropped on Japan....for the exact same reason as Rorschach.

Anyway, Rorschach wrote that opinion a long time ago right? Who knows if he still feels that way about it? Either way it might have just been the fact that Adrien wasn't going to tell anyone...where as back in WWII everyone know who did it and everything. It wasn't like they were hiding and blaming it on something else or anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:56 pm 
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Doesn't he say something as an adult about "good men like my father and President Truman", though, during the timeframe of the GN?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:38 pm 
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meganphntmgrl wrote:
Doesn't he say something as an adult about "good men like my father and President Truman", though, during the timeframe of the GN?

Yes he does. It's in the opening monologue. But the dad Rorschach mentions is purely a fiction. He's a fantasy substitute for the father Rorschach never knew.

So, where were you going with this?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Veidt's killed far more and japan was only bombed 2 cities they were warned first veidt gives no waring


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:37 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
meganphntmgrl wrote:
Doesn't he say something as an adult about "good men like my father and President Truman", though, during the timeframe of the GN?

Yes he does. It's in the opening monologue. But the dad Rorschach mentions is purely a fiction. He's a fantasy substitute for the father Rorschach never knew.

So, where were you going with this?


Oh, all I meant is that the worldview is clearly carried over into his adulthood that Truman did the right thing.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if someone had compared what Veidt did to what Truman did before Rorschach committed suicide-by-Manhattan.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:04 pm 
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[NOTE: Merged. --"Curiosity Inc."]

One thing I just noticed as odd, when reading the political affiliation and watchmen thread, is that Rorschach is a fan of Truman, and may even possibly agree with Truman's decisions to bomb Japan, but he disagrees with Veidt. How does that make sense. I mean we all know that Rorschach is crazy, but should he not like Truman, based on his logic that Truman murdered 300,000 people.

Here's what I wrote in another thread, when I stated that Truman's motives were worse than Veidt's.

Quote:
Personally I haven't decided if Truman made the right choice. Sure he only killed 300,000 (don't know how reliable that number is, but I know its less than 3 million), but his reasons were a lot worse. When discussing this issue most people just generalize that all of the Japanese wanted the war to continue, but the truth is, that many people in Japan were already protesting the war, many of them wanted it to end. Nuking Japan was a political move, ending the war before the USSR could get involved. The whole move was in the U S's best interests. People keep trying to justify by saying how more lives would have been killed, but fact is they still took the lives of 300,000 innocent lives.

With Veidt on the other hand, it's easier to argue that he did for altruistic reasons. He really wanted to save the world. In fact he bombed New York, not Moscow or any other major Russian city, he clearly wasn't doing it just in the U S's best interests (though some could argue he did it in his companies best interests). In the movie he bombs two US cities, for only one Russian city, maintaining that the US gets the worst of it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:45 pm 
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Rorschach's support of Truman is something he created in his childhood (probably in defiance of Sylvia, because she apparently argued with Rorschach's father about Truman, so Walter supports his father's point of view). He carries the belief into adulthood, but we don't really see him talking about it more than to say "good people like...". I really see this as something he's held onto but intentionally not examined as an adult, the same way we hang onto an old ragged teddy bear. It's not really useful anymore, but we can't bear to part with it no matter how logical we've become. It's still a comforting presence, somehow. (I really have seen people do this before, espouse a belief that they only hold because their father did, and when confronted with discussion on the topic...well, it wasn't pretty.)

But when he's faced with what Adrian has done...the first thing is, Adrian hasn't been honest. And he's eliminated anyone who could possibly reveal the truth, even the ones who probably were never even going to put the pieces together. Or want to. The Truth is a big deal to Rorschach.

The second thing is...these people that Adrian killed? Aren't people a half a world away. They're people Rorschach walked among every day, not just as a vigilante but as a human being. He didn't get along with them, felt most were scum, but these were his people and he held a certain dedication to them. He insisted on Justice, and that Justice was for them. Adrian just killed them all, with no regard for Justice.

(I have to wonder: if Hollis hadn't died the night before at the hands of the Knot-Tops, but died instead when Adrian destroyed the city -- would Dan have been so easily convinced to stay quiet?)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Janx wrote:
(I have to wonder: if Hollis hadn't died the night before at the hands of the Knot-Tops, but died instead when Adrian destroyed the city -- would Dan have been so easily convinced to stay quiet?)


That's a good question. I would say no, he probably would not have been easily convinced as he was, but I think he would have been forced to go along with the plan anyway. Unless you think he would have joined forces with Rorschach and gone back to the Owl Ship with him. Then Dr. Manhattan would have been forced to kill them both, you think?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:35 am 
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Truman didn't set off the atomic bomb for world peace. Veidt did. Don't think world peace will last. Can't imagine Veidt does either.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Quote:
but no one asked him to be our protector.


Is this not one of the main themes of Watchmen? Who watches Veidt and what gives him the right to play god?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:46 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Quote:
but no one asked him to be our protector.


Is this not one of the main themes of Watchmen? Who watches Veidt and what gives him the right to play god?


Though really, isn't the idea of doing nothing just as contemptible? That's the great thing about this canon- that if the smartest man in the world saw what was going on and didn't do anything, it'd be just as wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:05 pm 
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meganphntmgrl wrote:
Though really, isn't the idea of doing nothing just as contemptible? That's the great thing about this canon- that if the smartest man in the world saw what was going on and didn't do anything, it'd be just as wrong.


He is not responsible for the life of the entire planet, he gave himself that responsibility and decided to act accordingly.

Is there something wrong with that ? not really, except when you decide to kill 3 million people.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:22 am 
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So impotent.

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IS EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD REALLY TOO DUMB TO BE ABLE TO SEE HE CLEARLY SAYS HE'S JOKING?! You guys have spent four pages talking about something that was completely explained in the second quote. He's joking...that's why he said it. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:48 pm 
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...Not sure if the guy's a spambot or a troll. Either way, that's not much of a first impression.

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