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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:55 am 
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There was no proof that war was inevitable, and it is absolutely wrong to murder 3 million people who have done nothing wrong...damn the consequences; especially on a hunch. What if Kennedy nuked New York during the Cuban missile crisis? Its somewhat the same circumstances.
Also Rorschach doesnt murder whoever he pleases. He kills those who violate his conservative set of morals, and Ill be honest with you. If people went around killing drug dealers, and rapists, and people who butcher children I would be all for it. Our world would be a much better place.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:26 am 
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:lol: I'm getting a kick out of Real Life Rorschach.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:52 pm 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
There was no proof that war was inevitable.


Wait, what?

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:59 pm 
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V.M.L. wrote:
:lol: I'm getting a kick out of Real Life Rorschach.

Me too. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:50 pm 
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Ninjet wrote:
V.M.L. wrote:
:lol: I'm getting a kick out of Real Life Rorschach.

Me too. :roll:


Me three.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:53 pm 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
The man is a riddled with contradictions. He abhors crime and wrongdoing, but unknowingly embraces it by stealing, breaking and entering, and, hell, probably killing two police officers (the poor souls at the wrong end of a can of hairspray and his grappling gun). This is because he does not consider himself a part of society, he considers himself above it ("I'll look down and whisper . . ."). He has seen society's "true face" and thinks that it is not deserving of his sympathy or restraint. Moore wrote the character in a very specific way, a way that shows you the implausibility of somebody as black-and-white as Rorschach. Nobody can be the perfectly neutral, consistently objective personification of deontological ethics like Rorschach supposedly is; personal subjectivity is bound to get in the way, as one cannot help but be shaped by the experiences in their lives. Rorschach's leniency towards prostitutes and the many other "minor" infractions he encounters along the way is evidence of this. Whether he knows it or not, he compromises quite a bit. He compromises his desire to punish Moloch's possession of illegal drugs and an unlicensed gun by rationalizing that Moloch would probably be more useful out of trouble, where he is, where he could provide as much information as Rorschach needed. Why? Priorities. Finding out what he can about Blake's murder is a bigger priority than Moloch's pills, and herein lies the contradiction. Theoretically, Moloch's gun and Blake's murder are both evil deeds, evil deeds which must be punished, but only one can be addressed. So what is an objectivist to do? That's right! Compromise! Whether you know it or not . . ."


I always saw Rorschach not punishing Moloch for possessing Laetril as pity for Moloch and his cancer - a glimpse of the humanity beneath the mask; just as he doesn't punish his landlady because of her children. Underneath Rorschach's grim demeanour there's a damaged child who's lonely and human. He's such a wonderful character, beautifully written.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Walter K. wrote:
I always saw Rorschach not punishing Moloch for possessing Laetril as pity for Moloch and his cancer - a glimpse of the humanity beneath the mask; just as he doesn't punish his landlady because of her children. Underneath Rorschach's grim demeanour there's a damaged child who's lonely and human. He's such a wonderful character, beautifully written.


The same reason he doesn't punish his landlady in chapter 10, yes. You get these little flashes of Kovacs from under Rorschach's mask.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:12 pm 
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[NOTE: This post and the next few were merged here from the "Least Favorite Character" thread. --"Curiosity Inc."]

The Rorschach worshippers will truly piss me off. Nothing is worse than a bunch of little emo dorks and goth schmucks (I was nice with the words as not to offend you liberals here) who will be all "ohh, Rorschach is soo dark, Im just like him." God, these idiots did the same thing after the Dark Knight. I read posts all over saying "I bet Batman would vote for Obama" WTF? I mean honestly, for better or for worse it was a critique of our post 9/11 society with Bush as Batman, with the main heart of the movie being should someone do evil things if its necessary to defeat evil.
If they dont show him to be an uber-conservative morally superior badass I will be totally ticked. For some reason I feel he will be watered down to make him a crazed conspiracy theorist, as opposed to the violently passionate conservative that he is.

*FYI, I didnt vote for Ron Paul; his isolationist crap scares me, I voted for John McCain begrudgingly. Even though if Bush would have curbed his spending habits I would have written in his name instead.*

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Well, he's a violently passionate conservative badass who IS a crazy conspiracy theorist. So I hope they have it all.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Not really sure what the conspiracy theories are; there is pretty darn good evidence that there is a mask killer around. Heck, attack on Comedian, Manhattan gone, and also an attack on Veidt. If his conspiracies include believing global warming and the Kyoto Treaty in particular are socialist plots...count me in.

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"I wish all the liberals of the Earth had one throat....and I had my hands about it." -Rorschach, 2009
"Why are so few of us, in this forum, left active, healthy, and without personality disorders? " -Rorschach, 2009


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Man you are all kinds of crazy!


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:20 pm 
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What do you expect, he's Real Life Rorschach! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Go. I don't care if you claim Rorschach is morally superior, but voting to push the country into debt is sort of anti-patriotic. Go.


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:09 am 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
His conculsions are misguided and misplaced? Look at society today. Abortion on demand, prostition, people still sell drugs and murder is rampant. What is wrong with taking these people down. With them out of society it is a much better place. He undertsood that it was falling apart and his morals was what he used to try to keep it together. I understand he compromises with small issues, everyone does out of necessity. I agree, pure objectivity is absolutely impossible, but striving towards it is not always a bad thing. There are just some things you can not sacrifice, the mass murder of 3 million people for one. Heck blaming these catastrophies on a James Bondlike bad guy in a Antarctic base is actually a fairly rational idea. Also, the Russkies had self preservation in mind. Books like Red Storm Rising talk about a shooting war in Europe and how it wouldnt end with a nuclear exchange because the Russians were interested in self preservation (remember they arent the Iranians.) Its often better to use the small fish to catch the big fish.

Also what is wrong about punishing Veidt. Lets look at the facts. In the last page there is obvious censorship at the New Frontiersman, nobody can say anything bad about the Kossaks (it is misspelled intentionally); so we have already lost our first ammendment rights, fun. Also we are placed on moral equivalence with a dispicable ideal, communism, which during the 1980s had enslaved almost half the world and is responsible for the deaths of over 50 million people. *If anyone believes that the USA and the USSR were moral equivalents I want you to walk into the kitchen right now and drink the stuff under the sink.* Also Veidt's plan to spend less money on defense and more on saving the world is laughable. If we believed we were being invaded by aliens who have wiped out half of the world's greatest city we would spend every dollar we had on making Death Stars and Ray Guns and whatever we would need to fight off aliens. At the very least Veidt should meet some "hooded justice."

Ignore and redirect if it makes it easier for you to drag this into another infinitely irrelevant left vs. right squabble. Sharing the same carbon-copied opinion of society is still not a reason to embrace a character as virulent as Rorschach. It is not his opinions that make him dangerous, nor his opinions that have him as a pariah, but his actions and the philosophy that drives them. It is the same driving principle behind Veidt: I know what society needs, and I know how to give it to them, whether they want it or not. It is the entire theme of the book, [sarcasm]but I obviously don't need to tell you that[/sarcasm]. Rorschach's politics are irrelevant; it is his forcing them down society's throat in a way antithetical to freedom or justice that makes him a thoroughly negative character. But because you agree with the politics, it is suddenly OK to flaunt individual and societal freedoms if they prove to be an obstacle to your righting of society's wrongs. When the scenario is flipped, however, and the politics are suddenly not your own, then this very same principle is conveniently detestable. Veidt and Rorschach subscribe to the same basic idea: I know how to fix the world, I know what is right, and I know what needs to be done. You would deride Veidt's application of it, but applaud Rorschach's. Veidt's presumption resulted in the deaths of millions, but Rorschach's presumption would have resulted in the deaths of millions more. They are the same. The point of Watchmen is that it is never acceptable to place yourself above society, never acceptable to presume that you know what is best for it, and never acceptable to act in furtherance of such myopic ideas. The fact that you have taken the opposite of this to be the point of Watchmen tells me that you have a dilettantish understanding of the overall message, and have only extracted what best fits your own politics.

To which I say, "Good day, sir!"

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:28 am 
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So empirex:

Killing millions of INNOCENT PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals = Killing millions of BAD PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals.

Plus I dont subscribe to Moore's idea that its never better to place yourself above society. To be honest, there is a big difference between good and bad, moral and immoral, and communism and republican democracy. If you are correct then whats wrong about placing yourself over those who are wrong.

But to be honest, if Rorschach would have nuked San Francisco to preserve Republican ideals in California then I probably would have supported it. Its an awesome city, only if we got rid of all the people there.

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"I wish all the liberals of the Earth had one throat....and I had my hands about it." -Rorschach, 2009
"Why are so few of us, in this forum, left active, healthy, and without personality disorders? " -Rorschach, 2009


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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:29 am 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
Killing millions of INNOCENT PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals = Killing millions of BAD PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals.
Either way, it's still murder.

Real Life Rorschach wrote:
If you are correct then whats wrong about placing yourself over those who are wrong.
Who's to say that you're correct? Or if Rorschach is correct, for that matter?

EmPiiRe x wrote:
Ignore and redirect if it makes it easier for you to drag this into another infinitely irrelevant left vs. right squabble. Sharing the same carbon-copied opinion of society is still not a reason to embrace a character as virulent as Rorschach. It is not his opinions that make him dangerous, nor his opinions that have him as a pariah, but his actions and the philosophy that drives them. It is the same driving principle behind Veidt: I know what society needs, and I know how to give it to them, whether they want it or not. It is the entire theme of the book, [sarcasm]but I obviously don't need to tell you that[/sarcasm]. Rorschach's politics are irrelevant; it is his forcing them down society's throat in a way antithetical to freedom or justice that makes him a thoroughly negative character. But because you agree with the politics, it is suddenly OK to flaunt individual and societal freedoms if they prove to be an obstacle to your righting of society's wrongs. When the scenario is flipped, however, and the politics are suddenly not your own, then this very same principle is conveniently detestable. Veidt and Rorschach subscribe to the same basic idea: I know how to fix the world, I know what is right, and I know what needs to be done. You would deride Veidt's application of it, but applaud Rorschach's. Veidt's presumption resulted in the deaths of millions, but Rorschach's presumption would have resulted in the deaths of millions more. They are the same. The point of Watchmen is that it is never acceptable to place yourself above society, never acceptable to presume that you know what is best for it, and never acceptable to act in furtherance of such myopic ideas. The fact that you have taken the opposite of this to be the point of Watchmen tells me that you have a dilettantish understanding of the overall message, and have only extracted what best fits your own politics.

To which I say, "Good day, sir!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMhU64HMUA

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:35 am 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
If you are correct then whats wrong about placing yourself over those who are wrong.

Obviously grammar, punctuation, or making a lick o' sense using the King's english doesn't factor in to your 'right's n' wrongs', or you'd be the first up against the wall, kiddo.
Seriously, placing yourself above others you consider to be wrong identifies you instantly as... wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:37 am 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
So empirex:

Killing millions of INNOCENT PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals = Killing millions of BAD PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals.

Plus I dont subscribe to Moore's idea that its never better to place yourself above society. To be honest, there is a big difference between good and bad, moral and immoral, and communism and republican democracy. If you are correct then whats wrong about placing yourself over those who are wrong.

But to be honest, if Rorschach would have nuked San Francisco to preserve Republican ideals in California then I probably would have supported it. Its an awesome city, only if we got rid of all the people there.


Who the hell do you think you are? Just because you don't agree with one group of people doesn't mean you have a God-given right to destroy them. *Fumes*

I apologize in advance, Curi. The Frisco comment touched a rather deep nerve for me...

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:39 am 
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Real Life Rorschach wrote:
So empirex:

Killing millions of INNOCENT PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals = Killing millions of BAD PEOPLE to preserve your society's ideals.

Plus I dont subscribe to Moore's idea that its never better to place yourself above society. To be honest, there is a big difference between good and bad, moral and immoral, and communism and republican democracy. If you are correct then whats wrong about placing yourself over those who are wrong.

But to be honest, if Rorschach would have nuked San Francisco to preserve Republican ideals in California then I probably would have supported it. Its an awesome city, only if we got rid of all the people there.


EmPiiRe x wrote:
Ignore and redirect if it makes it easier for you to drag this into another infinitely irrelevant left vs. right squabble.

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This time, I will just let the the comment speak for itself. It does a much better job of being ridiculous on its own.

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 Post subject: Re: Rorschach
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:41 am 
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Real Life Rorschach is trolling. Still, I find him funny. :lol:

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