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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:49 pm 
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I'm reading this discussion with a considerable amount of amusement.

I'll say this about diversity. People will choose what they like. Of course, what they like is predicated somewhat on what they've been exposed to and what they expect.

Individuals raised in the Indian culture expect and like kathakali theater. You don't. That does not make it crap. But aside from your exposure in class, you probably will never have to watch it. You say it destroys kid's lives by demanding a commitment as an actor. OK, Hollywood's culture has never destroyed anyone's life, right??

For all I know, you grew up watching sitcoms and think they're pure gold. Power to you if that's so. I think sitcoms are shallow, repetitive, and demeaning. They are an insult to the intelligence.

I also hate TV sports. I think they're a shallow celebration of competition for the sake of competition. A stupid re-enactment of war games where you smash your opponent for glory and money. Everyone else seems to think it's the cat's meow. Everyone loves a winner, but there's no joy in Mudville.

Like Vynson, I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from. None of us individually gets to decide for others what going to be part of their culture. WE decide globally by participating, directly or indirectly, in those things that are precious to to us. If enough think it's interesting and worthwhile, then that particular thing lives on.

Jackson Pollock?? I don't get it either, but somebody feels it's good enough to promote and enough people are at least intrigued enough to come have a gander.

And Gone With The Wind? The story's not my cup of tea either. But the actor's performances are what makes it a classic.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:26 pm 
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I'm not saying anything should be excluded. It's simply that some people exclude things from fair comparison because of their cultural or 'classic' status. And actually, people in India aren't really fond of kathakali. It's pretty much maintained as a tradition.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:20 am 
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Trying to change things by banning something isn't the way it works.

Creating a better country to live in isn't made by chucking "undesirables" into a hole and burying them. Rhetorically or literally.

"Change" happens because we as individuals make decisions each and every day. Some of these choices result in bad things, some in good things. It's up to us all to ponder on what is a better result, or a worse one. It's called learning from our mistakes.

Using the warped philosophy of Watchmen's resident Nazi is just downright scary. It's scary in the book, and very creepy here. Of all places.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:30 am 
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Soupdragon wrote:
Trying to change things by banning something isn't the way it works.

Creating a better country to live in isn't made by chucking "undesirables" into a hole and burying them. Rhetorically or literally.

"Change" happens because we as individuals make decisions each and every day. Some of these choices result in bad things, some in good things. It's up to us all to ponder on what is a better result, or a worse one. It's called learning from our mistakes.

Using the warped philosophy of Watchmen's resident Nazi is just downright scary. It's scary in the book, and very creepy here. Of all places.


My posts:

Quote:
I'm not saying anything should be excluded

Quote:
They have a right to defend diversity

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You keep acting as though I want to stamp out diversity across the globe, go after it with a sword and shield, burn it all alive. I don't. People have the right to like whatever they want, absolutely.

Quote:
I'm not saying eliminate diversity. You misunderstand my intent

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:39 am 
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But you often write about "others".

Do you actually like diversity, Veidt?

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:59 am 
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Soupdragon wrote:
But you often write about "others".

Do you actually like diversity, Veidt?

Do I like diversity? As a trait? No. I don't place particular value in diversity. Now, I like things that happen to be diverse.

For instance, I don't like affirmative action. It's forced diversity for the sake of diversity. However, my best friend is black, and my closest friends include a Serbian, a Korean, a Mexican, and a Jew.

I don't like English courses where they give you international literature for the sake of reading from a diverse selection of countries rather than for the sake of their literary merit; however, one of my favorite books is One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

I don't like "Top 100" movie lists where half of the movies on them are black-and-white simply because they're classics. However, The Third Man and 12 Angry Men are a couple of my favorite movies.

So no, I don't like diversity - but I don't dislike it. I only dislike forced or intentional diversity that disregards quality or merit. The point, I think, that many are caught up on, is that they think that I think that there is one definitive judgment of quality or merit - there isn't. People have different opinions, especially over art. I don't like Pollock, personally, but I recognize that some find quality in his work that is separate from his historical timelessness. You get the picture. My problem is when people analyze something, recognize for themselves that it is inferior to others in its area, or fail to subject it to fair comparison with others in its area, and then place it above the others for the sake of diversity or tradition.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:36 am 
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Interesting topic folks.

There are a lot of occasions when cultural diversity are entirely beneficial, both in artistic and scientific terms. My own issues with diversity come far more from patriotic, jingoistic, tribal reasons for remaining seperate from one's fellow person, rather than any logic or societal reason.

I highly value cultural diversity in that one culture can often learn and benefit from the different mindset that speaking another language, and living in another culture can bring, where I have issues are when there are political or basically tribal reasons for not embracing and changing another ideal.

For example. I live in the UK, we are a European country, and there would be enormous economic and social benefits from fully embracing the European community and entering into a closer partnership. We currently still use the £ Sterling as our currency instead of the Euro, despite the many obvious benefits that would stem from changing over, simply in my opinion because politicians know they would lose their seat at the next election if they voted for it. Why? Because a vociferous minority of the population, and our jingoistic, xenophobic tabloid press keep stirring up stories about how "bad" Europe is, and what a disaster if we lost the Pound, and why did we fight the last war, etc.....Diversity in this area is not a good idea, and yet we have it.

One can still retain a sense of cultural identity, even when we integrate in other areas. What seems to be the main bone of contention is that integration in some areas predisposes us towards integration in other areas.

There are obvious areas where integration would be of great value, from economic, global stability, and political standpoints. It is entirely possible to integrate for example a common defence policy like NATO or the European Defence Initiative without losing sense of cultural or social indentity.

Most people however cling to the old tribal values, if you aren't from my tribe, you are a threat, and this ingrained belief structure stops a fuller and more complete integration from taking place, even when it is beneficial.

One can integrate without losing cultural or linguistic diversity, both of which are of enormous benefit to the entire world. One can adopt a single main official language, whilst still promoting and keeping other languages both spoken and written as important and valuable.

Going back to TVM's example of the Indian theatre, there is no reason to do away with that in the face of integration in other areas, in fact it should be kept and promoted simply because it is important to the culture from which it comes.

Single global economics, a single global common language, a single global legal system, which promotes cultural diversity both in scientific and artistic endeavour would be for me the best way forwards.

I prefer the humanist philospohy of J.S. Mill. We should be allowed to act in any fashion we desire, so long as we do not harm others against their will. I promote individual diversity, whilst promoting a certain level of global homogenisation.

Whilst I accept a strictly dictionary definition of the terms may be different, I have always seen morals as a code of behaviour that come from a religious stricture or root, and ethics as a code of behaviour defined from some other source. I realise that this may not be strictly true, but it does help in understanding the thought behind the code.

Most morals are handed down, and people do not question their validity since most major religions tend not to encourage questioning or thought, but blind obediance. Ethics too can be handed down, but in many cases are defined by the person or society, and are often questioned.

Whilst morals may be setup as purely objectivist, right or wrong, I would argue against Ayn Rand and Steve Ditko and many other objectivists. Whilst in an ideal world there would be no occasion in which something defined as moral could be questioned, practically I cannot think of a "moral" statement or law that under a specific set of circumstances can be shown to be at the very least debateable.

Whilst both morals and ethics may be a good guideline or set of rules that the majority of the populace should follow, no law should EVER be applied blindly. Strict laws that do not take into account cicumstances will ALWAYS under some circumstances condemn the innocent in a non-perfect legal system.

I do not believe that the ends justify the means, everything is always open to moral/ethical debate, and always should be. We should always examine our laws and societal rules in light of changing circumstances, otherwise our legal and social system becomes obsolete, and prevents the one thing that human society is always doing, which is change.

A couple of facile examples are that in the 12th century a law was passed in the UK that every man over the age of 13 should practise archery for 2 hours every Sunday after church, and that in the 13th century a law was passed that it is legal to shoot and kill a heretic on English soil with a crossbow or longbow.

Neither law has been repealed and yet neither is enforced. In objectivist terms, failure to adhere to the law is wrong. At the time both laws were needed and warranted, now both are obsolete and dangerous.

Any belief that law, morals or ethics are in black and white and not open to interpretation are inherently dangerous, and I wouldn't want to live in a world that. We've had societies like this before, Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, Europe in the Dark Ages, Islamic countries under Sharia law, take your pick. You could also cite the examples of religious cults again who do not accpet any other view of the world except their own.

None of them have ever been a pleasant place to live or promoted diversity, cultural, societal or political.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:22 am 
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Darkweaver wrote:
A couple of facile examples are that in the 12th century a law was passed in the UK that every man over the age of 13 should practise archery for 2 hours every Sunday after church, and that in the 13th century a law was passed that it is legal to shoot and kill a heretic on English soil with a crossbow or longbow.



Hehe

After 100 years of Sunday target practice I think some people started running out of rabbits. :lol:


Nice post, Darkweaver. Diversity is a sure sign of cultural health. When the Morris Dancers start getting rounded up, then we'll have to watch out. (Now there's an idea!) ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:45 am 
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Thank Soupy :) Actually I think Morris Dancing happens to be one cultural areas we could possibly live without, but hey I'm not going to ban it because it keeps middle aged straight people out of trouble in May ;)

The problem with any form of integration is that there will always be resistance to it because most people do not like change, despite the fact that they spend their entire lives having their noses rubbed in the fact that change is all around us. I would argue that one of the reasons for personal dis-satisfaction that some people feel stems from the fact that they hate change and yet are forced to accept it all the time.....

Perhaps humanity will begin to grow up, when the majority embrace change instead of fighting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:18 pm 
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Isolation breeds intolerance and ignorance, and that breeds racism. "Forced diversity" can be a very good thing in my opinion.

If for over 500 years blacks were prevented by "the system" to get the "good" jobs, than all affirmative action does is help push the balance back to where it should be. Is it "fair?" No. But neither is that fact that you can't afford to go to college becuase of decades of slavery and segregation that plagued your family's prior generations from getting anywhere. I see the other side of this argument, and I'll likely agree with the criticisms. I've thought long and hard about this issue and was against it at one time. I think differently now.

"Bussing" was a good idea too. Forcing students to "live" with each other breeds understanding and tolerance. It's a good thing - in the long run.

I've always felt that the average European is more enlightened and tolerant of other cultures because dozens of different cultures surround them every day. Middle America is so isolated from other cultures it's hard for me to criticize the average American's ignorance on certain issues because they are never exposed to that "diversity." Americans always get a bad rap on how "stupid" they are, but have your family live in the geographic isolation of Kansas for five generations and let's see how well-rounded your progeny end up being.

If folks are constantly around Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Gays or whatever other type of person they are not exposed to on a regular basis, they might begin to understand what it's like to live in their shoes and understand that they're not so different after all. Will there be friction? Sure. Will there be some violence? Yes. But it takes a while for the attitudes to shift. Programs like affirmative action help move that attitude shift forward a little faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:26 pm 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
Isolation breeds intolerance and ignorance, and that breeds racism. "Forced diversity" can be a very good thing in my opinion.

If for over 500 years blacks were prevented by "the system" to get the "good" jobs, than all affirmative action does is help push the balance back to where it should be. Is it "fair?" No. But neither is that fact that you can't afford to go to college becuase of decades of slavery and segregation that plagued your family's prior generations from getting anywhere. I see the other side of this argument, and I'll likely agree with the criticisms. I've thought long and hard about this issue and was against it at one time. I think differently now.

"Bussing" was a good idea too. Forcing students to "live" with each other breeds understanding and tolerance. It's a good thing - in the long run.

I've always felt that the average European is more enlightened and tolerant of other cultures because dozens of different cultures surround them every day. Middle America is so isolated from other cultures it's hard for me to criticize the average American's ignorance on certain issues because they are never exposed to that "diversity." Americans always get a bad rap on how "stupid" they are, but have your family live in the geographic isolation of Kansas for five generations and let's see how well-rounded your progeny end up being.

If folks are constantly around Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Gays or whatever other type of person they are not exposed to on a regular basis, they might begin to understand what it's like to live in their shoes and understand that they're not so different after all. Will there be friction? Sure. Will there be some violence? Yes. But it takes a while for the attitudes to shift. Programs like affirmative action help move that attitude shift forward a little faster.

Hmmm....sacrificing a relative few for the benefit of a larger good....interesting concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Hmmm....sacrificing a relative few for the benefit of a larger good....interesting concept.


I don't understand how that is relevant here. No one is dying because of affirmative action. Some talented individuals may have to forgo that promotion because the current paradigm allows those previously denied opportunities that were formerly closed to them.

To put things in perspective, however, I have yet to see a true meritocracy in action. In much of the world, one's ability at social climbing seems to often trump talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:09 pm 
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dandreiberg wrote:
Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Hmmm....sacrificing a relative few for the benefit of a larger good....interesting concept.


I don't understand how that is relevant here. No one is dying because of affirmative action. Some talented individuals may have to forgo that promotion because the current paradigm allows those previously denied opportunities that were formerly closed to them.

Dying is not of the magnitude of any problems brought about by affirmative action, but I wouldn't say it's irrelevant. Both issues deal with what is just; what is reasonable.

I'm not saying affirmative action is right or wrong. I'm not saying what Veidt did was right. What I mean to say is that the ends don't always justify the means. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But whether someone dies or not doesn't have to be the sole determinant of what is just.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Burgers N Borscht wrote:
I'm not saying affirmative action is right or wrong.


Burgers N Borscht wrote:
Dying is not of the magnitude of any problems brought about by affirmative action


Your posts seem to imply otherwise. I know some feel they are passed over due to affirmative action programs. Considering that the vast majority of higher echelon positions continue to be held by white males, I fail to grasp the magnitude of the actual problem.

Burgers N Borscht wrote:
whether someone dies or not doesn't have to be the sole determinant of what is just.


No disagreement. Life is seldom fair, however, and it rains on the just and the unjust alike.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:45 pm 
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The problem with America, and the root of racism in general, is that we continue to act as if there are inherent differences between racial groups. There are not. Now, I don't mind the idea of affirmative action on a non-race-based basis. I mean, ok, blacks were oppressed many generations ago, and their socioeconomic status isn't great right now. But if we're basing it on their current socioeconomic status, why not expand that across the lowest socioeconomic/regional rung, assessing who has the worst access to education or a good upbringing, and base selection on that? I mean, I come from a pretty well-off household, and I'd be in full support of that. It'd give disadvantaged students a chance at a better higher education, evening things out across the board. Why not that? Why base it on race? Is a middle class black student more disadvantaged than a lower class white student out in the boonies?

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:48 pm 
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dandreiberg wrote:
... it rains on the just and the unjust alike.

Hehe -- nice

Here's what I meant to imply with my affirmative action comments:
The ends don't always justify the means.
Death doesn't have to be the determinant of whether it does or not.
People should not see any of these or similar issues as having cut-and-dry answers.
It's ironic how sometimes someone can have the opinion of "the ends justify the means" on one issue and not another.

Love your posts, Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:26 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
Is a middle class black student more disadvantaged than a lower class white student out in the boonies?

Yes, unfortunately this is excatly the case. It sucks, but just being black is a disadvantage. It has nothing to do with economic status. It's a race issue, period.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:33 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
blacks were oppressed many generations ago


It really wasn't that long ago. The whole civil rites movement took place during the mid 60's. Chances are your grandparents or maybe even parents remember that time.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:51 pm 
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DoomsdayClock wrote:
The Veidt Method wrote:
Is a middle class black student more disadvantaged than a lower class white student out in the boonies?

Yes, unfortunately this is excatly the case. It sucks, but just being black is a disadvantage. It has nothing to do with economic status. It's a race issue, period.

But for getting into college? I know plenty of white people that are far more disadvantaged and poorly-provided-for than any number of black people. Considering that being black could only possibly affect one positively for college applications in the current state of things, I don't see the logic regarding the necessity of balancing a 'disadvantage' because of race.

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 Post subject: Re: Which world?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:57 pm 
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The Veidt Method wrote:
But for getting into college? I know plenty of white people that are far more disadvantaged and poorly-provided-for than any number of black people.

Sure. But no matter how poor or unfortunate they are, they have one thing going for them that someone who is black does not - they're white.

The Veidt Method wrote:
Considering that being black could only possibly affect one positively for college applications in the current state of things, I don't see the logic regarding the necessity of balancing a 'disadvantage' because of race.

Forget college. I don't know enough about their application processes to know if a black student has more leverage to get excepted. But even if they did, how many black teens are even thinking about college? It goes so much deeper than that and the disadvantages are piled on from birth so that many don't even get to a point where college is even an option.

But let's say an average student who's black gets that far and graduates with decent grades. Most corporations are biased in hiring blacks. Sure, we have equal opportunity laws, but those lines are very gray for employers so if they feel more "comfortable" around whites than blacks, they're not hiring many blacks, some, none at all. Affirmative action gets qualified black job applicants in the door and at a desk. Now maybe with a decent salary some of that person's kids have a better chance of getting into college. That's how the cycle starts. That's how it helps to balance it out.

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