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I think a lot of people do have a big problem discussing this objectively, on a Watchmen fanboy board, mere weeks after that film's release. These kind of arguments/discussions are really only worth anything when both films have had some time to breathe and soak in.

I agree, Heath certainly wasn't great solely because of the material. He took it and made it his own.

What I meant was, Haley just doesn't have as much to work with and doesn't have nearly as much screen time or moments to shine.

As good as Haley was, his performance is more about a few moments of shining really bright (i.e. the shrink sessions, the ending) mixed with some average moments covered in a mask that doesn't really allow him to emote fully. Yes, he does a good job with the body language, and many scenes with the mask he does amazing things with some rather ho-hum lines. His delivery of "when we were partners" as he's leaving down Dan's tunnel was particularly awe-inspiring.

But for my money, he just doesn't "light up" the screen like Ledger did, even in his absolute best moments. And then there's moments where I felt he was just underwhelming (i.e. the Rockefeller Base scene with Manhattan and Laurie).

There wasn't one single moment of Ledger's performance that was anything other than inspired perfection. That's why he took home an Oscar for playing The Joker of all characters. And while there's no way to prove it, he certainly would've taken that trophy home and received all the same adulation and praise if he was still here today.

I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a working actor (i.e. someone who really knows the craft and what it takes) who feels like Haley gave a better performance than Ledger.

I agree. I'm a little baffled that the majority of votes think Haley gave the better performance. You could (and some have) say that Ledger was the only reason to see The Dark Knight. I don't think you could say the same for Haley. His is not a must see performance. I actually cringed a little at some of his line readings ("I'm not in it for the iiiiiink" was particularly bad).

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."

Sanity returns.

Haley was terrific. Ledger was on another level.

For the first time ever...I'm not kidding ever, I want to see The Oscars. Hope JEH makes at least the nominations then it will be worth the two hour eye gouging session called the Oscars.

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"Redistributing myself after the subtraction of my intrinsic field was the first trick I learned. It didn't kill Osterman...Did you think it would kill me?''

There is no. way. in. hell. JEH is getting any nomination for anything other than maybe a Scream Award for this. Get used to it. You'll sleep better.

I'm afraid he's right. Think about how early this movie was released. In fact, weren't the Oscars like a week before it came out? That's a pretty long time to expect the voters to keep Haley in mind until the next Oscars come around.

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."

I know my tone can come off as snarky, and I'm really just bring humorous/ornery.

But in all seriousness... he wouldn't be considered no matter what time of the year the film came out. It's a good performance, no doubt. But it is in no way an "Oscar caliber" performance. At all.

And besides... those awards are a joke anyway. Any organization that nominated the fucking Reader and Frost/Nixon (and director Ron Howard) over The Wrestler/Darren Arnonofsky in a year like this past one is fucking NUTS!

I understand many people on here lean way more towards "Watchmen fans" than "film lovers," and so it's no surprise that people automatically jump to "Oh, man, I LOVE that performance! NOMINATIONS!!! GIVE HIM AN OSCAR!!! HUZZAH!!!!"

But seriously, the only hopes this film has for any sort of Oscar awards is in the VFX category (Sound mixing sure as hell isn't in the running with this one, ha ha). And even then, it's going to have some tough, tough competition for that too. In fact, I'd put my money on no VFX nominations for Watchmen. Why, you ask? It's simple: Where The Wild Things Are, Harry Potter, Star Trek, Terminator, Transformers, and (vomit), maybe even 2012. That's a lot of contenders that the academy may lean towards.

But the biggies? The Lovely Bones (artfully and very well done FX can be a lock. Just look at Benjamin Button). And what I would guess is already the LOCK for most tech awards? James Cameron's Avatar.

You bring up some good points here. I can't respond to anything about the film yet since I haven't seen it yet, but I think it's part of the problem with March being kind of the dumping ground for films. It occurring right after the Oscars is a sure way of saying "don't consider these films." You'd think 300 might have garnered some VFX recognition . . . but it didn't.

And, yeah, if Avatar is as grand as it sounds like it'll be, it could be a shoe-in for a lot of awards, for those who look at those things. I'm tempted to say the worst case scenario with how Watchmen is remembered is eye candy . . .

But I digress. Back to Haley and Ledger.

(Second on the disdain shown towards Aronofsky. I truly appreciate his approach to filmmaking, The Fountain also being one of my favorites. I regard the Oscars less and less each year.)

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If you're looking for quotes, read a book.

Heath Ledger gave the more powerful performance....which is saying something because Jackie Earle Haley was not far behind at all.

JEH definitely deserves an Oscar for his portrayal of Rorschach. He was already nominated for one in '06, why not give him another shot?

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One superhero blows up New York, another one kills women and children, and the last one just flashes everybody.
SUPERHEROES ARE ASSHOLES! ~ Chester A. Bum

Second.

Of course, he's not going to get it. I'm sure that most of them regard Watchmen as some stupid superhero movie.

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."

Unfortunately, you're right. The Academy is about as open-minded as a friar in a strip club, especially when it comes to superhero movies.

But even if they thought every other aspect of the movie sucked (which I can't see being POSSIBLE, but I digress), they have to take a look at Jackie's performance and say with a straight face that his role was not Oscar-worthy. They know it is, but cannot seem to muster up the cajones to nominate an actor with different role for an Oscar...unless that actor died, of course.

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One superhero blows up New York, another one kills women and children, and the last one just flashes everybody.
SUPERHEROES ARE ASSHOLES! ~ Chester A. Bum

So we need to kill JEH... but I want to see Watchmen 2!

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Well if you're ever in the Toronto area I will gladly meet you, look you in the eye and say "No, Jackie Earl Haley does not deserve to win an Oscar, nor be nominated for one".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. In my opinion Haley's performance was not award worthy. It just wasn't. Oh, but you'll say "what about when he was killed by Dr Manhattan, that was so emotional!", and I'll agree. In that one scene Haley did actually nail it. But that is one scene in a 3+ hour movie. One scene in an a 3 hour movie where he spends much of the time with his face behind a mask and speaking in a gruff voice. When I saw the movie I originally was somewhat impressed with the performance. Now, I think I'm more impressed with his total dedication to the part than with his actual acting itself. In my opinion, if I absolutely had to nominate someone for their performance from this movie it would be either JDM as Blake or Crudup as Jon. Now these were good performances.

I've also given my feelings on Haley vs Ledger in an earlier post but there is one more ridiculous sentiment seen a number of times in this thread, and that is the idea that Ledger would not have been nominated had he not died. Now I know some saw the Dark Knight only because it was one of Ledger's final performances, but I don't think that was enough for people to just blindly praise it. People were excited about it, blown away by it. Had he not died there is no doubt in my mind that he still would have been nominated and probably won. Really, who else that year in a supporting role had, I hate to use the word, as an electrifying a performance as Ledger's? In my mind, if Bardem could win for No Country For Old Men, or if Palance could win for City Slickers, or if Downey Jr could be nominated for Tropic Thunder, or if Depp could be nominated for freakin' Pirates of The Caribbean, Ledger could be nominated for The Dark Knight.

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."

I thought Haley did a great job even when his face was covered. My favorite actors always use more than their face. They change the way the characters sounds and moves. I loved the physicality Haley came up with for Rorschach. Lots of subtle nuances.

I still think Morgan and Goode were the best though.

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"Computer unnecessary."

I think he would have been nominated regardless if he died or not, but I still feel like his death guaranteed the win for him. Any other year and Josh Brolin would have won Best Supporting Actor for his work in Milk.

I don't know about that. I haven't seen Milk so I can't say how good Brolin is. But I will say that had you not mentioned him I would not have remembered he had even been nominated. I don't remember any Oscar buzz surrounding his name last year.

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."

If I'm ever in the Toronto area, I'll gladly meet you and say, "Rorschach died for your sins." That is, of course, after I'm finished taking a trip to the CN Tower, Magic Health Foods to see Goldfield, and stalking Kenny/Spenny.


What does the fact that he's behind a mask have to do with anything? If anything, that actually shows he can still act the shit out of a role without even showing his face. Plus, the actual mask had eyes cut out so the CG artists could form ink blots akin to the emotions they saw in JEH's eyes. Even without seeing his eyes, you could feel his torment and his little nuances in his body language....so fucking powerful. I felt more emotion without even seeing that man's face than I did with any of the other characters'.


Both were great, but they also paled in comparison to JEH in my opinion.


Trust me - the Academy HATES us comic and superhero nerds. They would have had NO problem finding another contender for that Oscar had Ledger not passed away.

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One superhero blows up New York, another one kills women and children, and the last one just flashes everybody.
SUPERHEROES ARE ASSHOLES! ~ Chester A. Bum

Because ALL of the Oscar buzz was surrounding Heath Ledger being the first actor to posthumously win Best Actor/Supporting Actor since James Dean. Had he not died, I'm sure he would have still had buzz surrounding his performance, but they pretty much handed him the award before the movie even came out.

Did Heath deserve the Oscar for his portrayal as The Joker? Hell yes he did. He took the character, made it his own, and made me believe. The first time I saw the film I forgot that he was dead, I was completely sucked in and believed this character. His performance is just amazing, and definitely deserving of the Oscar he received posthumously.

Jackie Earle Haley? He at least deserves a nomination, and maybe even win it. His performance was just as "electrifying" as Heath Ledger's Joker. He managed to completely sell the character for more than half of the movie with a mask over his face. His body language and movements alone made me know what he was feeling without seeing what is obviously an actors main tool: his face. When the mask was off...it took it to a much higher level. Watching Jackie work while the mask is off is quite amazing, the close ups completely make me believe it's "Rorschach". Look at his eyes during the interrogation scenes while he's in prison, pure intensity.

And of course the end of the film, where I could already feel myself choking up when he says "That's always been the difference between us, Danial" and then hesitates. His body language there was so perfect that I was ready to shed some man tears before the mask even came off. And when it does...oh boy. The twitches in his face in his final moments (made so much easier to see on blu-ray) still have me tearing up after multiple viewings. Jackie Earle Haley definitely deserves some Oscar nod, in my opinion.

But Watchmen isn't nearly as popular as the Dark Knight, and Jackie isn't a well known star who passed away before the movie was out. But don't take that as me saying that Heath wouldn't have walked away with an Oscar had he still been alive today. In fact, in my head, I can see him up on that stage holding the golden statue with a big grin on his face minus the make up.

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http://vimeo.com/korireaymackey

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."