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Thanks for the comments. That's a valid point -- Rorschach IS aware of Nite Owl I's "allegations". I can only ascribe his indifference to wanting to believe what he wants to believe, so he chooses to regard Nite owl's charge as "unproven", heresay, and thus reserve judgment and not need to reexamine his beliefs. Possibly the fact that it is so long ago also means that to Rorschach, it is "water under the bridge" and so not relevant any longer. Perhaps also, R choses to regard this as a one time "moral lapse" since we are not told that the Comedian was ever accused of other attempted rapes (the man Rorschach admits killing was a serial rapist who even the police seem to regard as guilty).

Rorschach seems to have an internal ranking system of sorts in place, where an "alleged" rape attempt in 1940, well before his own time, counts for little compared to Blake's decades of service as a "patriot". It's a sort of black-and-white value judgment, keeping in character.

Oh, and it would be a fascinating story to see R and C working together, that's for sure. I think that the ONLY way a sequel could ever be contemplated for WATCHMEN (and I'm not saying by any means that I think this is a good idea-- unless Moore was involved) would be to take the DC HEROES roleplaying game concept and set the story in the "Crimebusters" period, c. 1962 to 1975, when most of the latter generation of adventurers are active and you could use the classic characters in new combinations and conflicts. In my imagination, Rorschach quickly becomes disillusioned with Blake and Blake finds Rorschach way too individualistic , solitaire, and uncompromising to suit his tastes.

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Good points. We don't have enough to go on to be sure on the fact Rorschach is one to let pass old crimes but it seems unlikely he'd have the desire or time to chase down inactive criminals. I also wonder if it made a difference that it was Laurie who said it?
Ror doesn't like Laurie and I don't think he respects her much either (I think he gets she'd rather be doing something else and so is critical of the fact she's just playing along. I think he's respect her more if she was more honest with herself and either admitted she liked it or got out).
The fact she was upset about is likely to make him more determined to ignore it if anything.



I think so. We never see him try again. He does admit, to Moloch, to doing "some bad things to women" but he may be refering to Sally and the Vietnamese woman here (and their encounter seems to have been conceptual. Rape victims generally don't want the perp to stick around and help them raise the kid nor to rapists promise to do so.).



Completely agree. Also apparent from his first kill. It was the first time he had come across a criminal he felt deserved to die which implies he ranks them.



Probably as well they didn't work together as Ror may not have bothered investigating the Comedian's murder and Ozy's play would never have been uncovered!
I still think Ror would respect Blake more than Laurie, though, even if just for the fact he is true to himself and Rorschach can't seem to stand people who aren't.

Not sure if Blake would be bothered by Rors' uncompromising attitude or not.
The one thing we see Blake get really pissed of an another mask for (apart from HJ interrupting his "time" with Sally) is Hatty for not caring. No one could ever say Rorschach doesn't care and I think Blake would be OK with him.

The individualistic thing may get to Blake but I'm not sure. Why do you think that it would?

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"Probably as well they didn't work together as Ror may not have bothered investigating the Comedian's murder and Ozy's play would never have been uncovered!
I still think Ror would respect Blake more than Laurie, though, even if just for the fact he is true to himself and Rorschach can't seem to stand people who aren't.

Not sure if Blake would be bothered by Rors' uncompromising attitude or not.
The one thing we see Blake get really pissed of an another mask for (apart from HJ interrupting his "time" with Sally) is Hatty for not caring. No one could ever say Rorschach doesn't care and I think Blake would be OK with him.

The individualistic thing may get to Blake but I'm not sure. Why do you think that it would?"

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I think that Rorschach's comparative lack of humor, and inability to join in with the Comedian's nihilistic, exuberant black humor, would get on the Comedian's nerves. His motivations are so different from the Comedian's -- they would be bound to clash over something that Blake would think was funny and Rorschach would be taking deadly seriously.

The Comedian also thought Rorschach was "nuts", at least by 1977, so I doubt either would have been very comfortable around the other for very long by that time.

It's interesting that none of the "Crimebusters" really ever work together for any length of time except Nite Owl and Rorschach. I can't tell if Laurie ever went on patrols with Doc Manhattan -- she never implies such. Her solo crimefighting career is really only very sketchily documented in the novel. We see Nite owl and the Comedian working together (out of desire or purely as a desperate measure? I always assumed the latter) once, in the 1977 police strike riots. And that's about it, isn't it? No "Super Friends" here!

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IV.18.1 - Laurie in conversation with Manhattan as they walk the rooftops of NYC, May 1966:

It's nice of you to come out on patrol with me. My mum taught me everything she knew, but I'm still pretty new to all this.

This is around the time their intimate relationship began so I can envisage Laurie and Manhattan became fairly inseperable thereafter (notwithstanding his short tour in 'Nam) both privately and professionally before they moved into their first apartment together in 1970.

Oh, yeah. I could just imagine that and, damn, I wanna see it.


True. Of course, Ror was nuts but I agree they would have made an awkward pairing.



Well, no. They were all very disparate personalities who, though they kinda wanted the same result, wanted it for very different reasons and it just turned out that Rorschach and Dan were the most pure of motivation (well, Dan had fewer foibles) and he was pretty passive and willing to turn a blind eye to the worst of Ror's activities so Ror and Dan could work together where the others' ego's and hang-ups got in the way.

The way Dan was he could have also worked with Blake but he would, like Jon, never try and temper him and he really needed someone who would. I think he wanted it too.

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Yes. Then there is the scene where Laurie and Daniel are talking about the old days and Laurie mentions her favorite patrol route around DC. But she doesn't say anything about Jon being with her. My impression has always been that she went out to do her Silk Spectre thing while Jon was back in his lab doing his Jon things. One wonders if she had a secret signal watch so she could can him in an emergency, a la Jimmy Olsen!

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Whereas my impression is that Manhattan was an active crimefighter (conceivably alongside SS II) right up to the advent of the Keene Act in '77 whereupon she retired and he chose to devote much more of his time to his studies only from this point onwards, acquiring his personal lab at Rockefeller in '81 and concentrating exclusively on "his work" thereafter.

Erm actually I see Rorschach as having some pretty dark humor himself, just it's not the same brand of humor as most of the superheroing crew around him. I mean, Human Bean Juice= humor! LOL. He even laughed.

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Also the bit where he pretends to see butterflies and flowers in the ink blots had the mark of a sarcastic little in joke.

But let's look at how Rorschach's saw the Comedian in his own words:

"No staying power. None of them. Except Comedian.
Met him in 1966. Forceful personality. Didn't care if people liked him.
Uncompromising.
Admired that.

Of us he understood most about world. About people. About society and what's happening to it.

Things everyone knows in gut. Things everyone too scared to face. To polite to talk about.
Understood man's capacity for horrors and never quit. Saw the world's black underbelly and never surrendered.

Once a man has seen he can never turn his back on it. Never pretend it doesn't exist. No matter who orders him to look the other way. (insert visual Keene act reference)"

He finishes with:
"We do not do this thing because it is permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we are compelled."

From this we can gather that Rorschach had a lot of regard for the Comedian, at that stage more than for any of the other masked heroes (this is during his stay in prison).

The last part implies he saw a link between the two. The "we" is the Comedian and Rorschach. The only two who felt a strong enough compulsion not to be silenced by the Keene act.

It's clear Rorschach could not have known the Comedian very well personally but he didn't seem to be bother by his attitude, in fact he lauded it. He was at the Crimebuster's meeting. He heard what Blake said. He made his fatalistic view very clear but out of that, instead of being put off, Rorschach seems to have found a kindred spirit (that was the 1966 meeting he was referring too).

Had they worked together it's possible the Comedian may have fallen off Rorschach's pedestal but I get the feeling it would have taken a fair bit on Blake's part (as Laurie found out). More that for anyone else.

It is also notable mark of respect? regard? something like it? (not romantic interest fangirls!) that Rorschach still had the rose from Blake's grave in his pocket when he was arrested two weeks later. It could be suggested he just forgot to take it out but everything else in his pockets was of immediate use to him. He wasn't using them to hoard useless crap.

Thinking on it I can see them having a respect for each others uncompromising ways.
Let's not forget Rorschach is also very violent in his methods and is not likely to shrink for the Comedian's action unless he starts to doubt his motivations.
If Ror starts to think Blake is only doing what he does for self fulfillment then maybe the relationship with strain but Blake doesn't care too much about standoffish and odd, he worked with Jon after all and it's clear he isn't just in it for himself to Ror may never get too bothered unless he starts topping kids or something.

To Blake pairing up in an expedient and as long as his partner knows his stuff and doesn't do anything (or not do anything) that steps on his fundamental beliefs then he'd be OK. As long as he cares.

Who cares more than Rorschach?
Blake won't get squicked by Rorschach's methods either.
and Rorschach would say if he thought Blake was out of line. He's not shy in his criticism of Dan. He doesn't care about sparing feelings.
Not sure Blake would listen but he may appreciate the fact someone cared enough to say. Blake seems very aware of his poor impulse control and seems to be saddened by it at times (not surprising considered how it's cost him).

A problem they may have, though, is Rorschach is no good at following orders.
May cause conflict there if a mission is halted by Rorschach refusing to play.
The mission would have to be something Ror feels is important and that could hinder them is something came up that he didn't feel was.



I don't know. After all this I think they could work together on an occasional basis and kick some hardcore arse while they are at it.

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Whether the real Comedian would have measured up to the mythologised version in Rorschach's mind is a more difficult question. The thing is, they don't really do the same kind of work - the Comedian focuses on government contracts, rather than dealing with the sort of small time criminals that Rorschach makes a point of taking out. The Comedian is more a military mercenary to Rorschach's gumshoe - not a very likely combination. Also, the Comedian doesn't seem to be intent on actually "saving" anything - he seems to be more interested in unleashing his violent tendencies in productive ways. Both share a bleak world view, but Rorschach is determined to carry on with a crusade that even he believes is doomed.



Well, I think the fact that he took it at all is significant. Unless we've underestimated Rorshcach's taste as a natty dresser!

I've often wondered if Rorschach saw the Comedian as a kind of father figure. Rorschach likes to think his own father worked for the government, and sees the Comedian as a Patriot, dying in his Country's Service. He may even have literally believed (or wanted to believe) that the Comedian was his father - the Comedian was just about old enough. In any case, the Comedian gives Rorschach something to aspire to - something he sorely lacks.

RE: The Comedian's attempted rape, there are a few interpetations. Rorschach may have been winding Laurie up with his "moral lapses" jibe - just as he may have been winding her up by getting her name wrong. The strange thing is that when Rorschach says "So, you support the allegations made in Hollis Mason's book?", it's almost as if he's weighing up the evidence in his mind - filing it away for later use. Either way, Blake's status as a patriot seems to excuse him in Rorschach's eyes.

Also, Rorschach felt that his mother's murder was "good" - he didn't seem to see anything wrong with excusing that. To him, prostitutes are a class who don't seem to deserve his protection, and I suspect he would have placed Sally Jupiter into that class.



Interesting that, during the rape, Blake only turns nasty after Sally scratches him. I'm not sure he set out with the intention of raping her if she didn't agree - he just couldn't envisage that she wouldn't. Just as he couldn't see, years later, why she'd harbour a grudge. Blake's almost like a brutalized soldier - well suited to the theatre of war but struggling to fit in on civvy street.

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I shall go and tell the indestructible man that someone intends to murder him.

Absolutely. Rorschach's comments at Blake's grave -- paraphrased, Is this what's left for us at the end of the line, no time for friends, so that only our enemies leave flowers for us when we die? -- echo the Comedians' comments to Moloch -- again, paraphrased, You're the closest thing I have to a friend, how screwed up is that? He finds an odd kinship with and sympathy for the Comedian in that thought. I think it ties in with apologizing to Dan and aknowledging his friendship later, before they leave for Karnak, before it's too late. It's a lesson Rorschach's learned from the Comedian's life.

Also, I find it fascinating that the two characters who seem to completely lack any "sentimentality" (as Dan says about Rorschach, "You were never that sentimental") turn out to be the ones who end up most concerned about the human relationships in their lives.


Well, there is that, too! Hey, considering what he's got to work with, he's got the best costume out of all of them!

You know....lately I've been curious about Rorschach's opinion about the Comedian's attempted rape on Sally: Obviously, Rorschach considers rape a crime, as he punishes Grice, Furniss, and the "rape/mugging/both", yet why hasn't he "punish" the Comedian?

Technically, when he says "moral lapses", he doesn't REALLY point it towards anyone in particular. Laurie takes it as the "moral lapses" of the Comedian, but that's might not have been Rorschach's point. Rorschach could have meant the "moral lapses" of the Minutemen -- of Sally for not reporting it to the police, or of Laurence for convincing her not to, or for the rest of the Minutemen for doing NOTHING to help. He may have been more judgmental against the Minutemen for pulling a "Kitty Gevonse's neighbours" bit on Sally's dilemma.

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Lots of really fine, thoughtful comments up there. I have nothing to add to or argue with, just pleased to see so many nuanced interpretations and articulate opinions. Makes me sad there aren't MORE Watchmen tales to enjoy and savor like this. But one can't expect lightning to strike twice.

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Good point. It also ties in with the lesson that Laurie learns about seizing the moment - and the fact that she doesn't have forever to get on and start being honest about how she feels. There's a weird symmetry between Rorschach and Laurie: Rorschach hates his mother; Laurie pretends to hate her mother. Rorschach never knew who his father was; Laurie knows who her father is, but refuses to admit it to herself.



Is this not what sent them both over the edge? Kovacs is sentimental and concerned about those around him: that's why he invented Rorschach, to help him cope with his powerlessness to protect them. When even Rorschach couldn't protect Blair Roche, that was it - right over the precipice. Minutemarch made a good case that the Comedian's nihilism stems from caring too much: it burned him out, if you like.



Hmmm... good take, although he specifically ties it to "men who died in their country's service", which wouldn't really cover the Minutemen. Certainly, though, there's something a bit creepy about Hollis Mason's profiteering from the juicy scandals - perhaps Rorschach was sceptical, and saw it as a smear campaign? After all, he's been on the receiving end of those from the press.



Well, I'm glad Watchmen itself is self-contained. Either it would go crap eventually, or we'd be trapped forever trying to unpick the Gordian Knot of rich complexity...

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I shall go and tell the indestructible man that someone intends to murder him.

You Know, I dont think he approves of Hollis or his book.

Rorschach is pretty against publicity, attention whoring..etc... (reference his crimebusters meeting quotes and attitude toward viedt)

A mask writing a tell all book detailing the sordid reality of masks and profiting off of it, is probably not his cup pf tea.

He views the masks as an elite group dedicated to upholding justice, none of the other masks actually like him, but he identifies with their cause... or what he precieves their cause to be.

Yeah. That's why I only see them working together occasionally. When circumstances would allow (like when Blake worked with Dan.)
I would not see them teaming up in the way that Dan and Rorschach teamed up.



True. Their world views do not overlap completely by any means. Another reason why a long-term pair up would never happen. They do have very different methods but any of the Watchmen could theoretically have fought along side each other for a single mission.
Blake and Ror could have easily been paired for the riots as Blake and Dan. It would be that sort of team up, one of circumstance rather than one of choice, we would likely see between the two.

I am very curious to know what it would take to get Blake off Rorschach's pedestal if anything.



Oh, I like that theory. Blake could well be Rorschach's claytons dad. He fits the description nicely. The possibility of Blake being his real dad has been on my thoughts lately but I really don't think he is. If nothing else I don't think Mrs Kovacs is Eddie's type of gal (even if he was paying).
Plus, story wise, I think that would kinda suck.



Post subject: Re: Rorschach Reply with quote
Whether the real Comedian would have measured up to the mythologised version in Rorschach's mind is a more difficult question. The thing is, they don't really do the same kind of work - the Comedian focuses on government contracts, rather than dealing with the sort of small time criminals that Rorschach makes a point of taking out. The Comedian is more a military mercenary to Rorschach's gumshoe - not a very likely combination. Also, the Comedian doesn't seem to be intent on actually "saving" anything - he seems to be more interested in unleashing his violent tendencies in productive ways. Both share a bleak world view, but Rorschach is determined to carry on with a crusade that even he believes is doomed.

Quote:
It is also notable mark of respect? regard? something like it? (not romantic interest fangirls!) that Rorschach still had the rose from Blake's grave in his pocket when he was arrested two weeks later.




Oh come on, you know he just wants to go to all the smart parties.
"Hurm. Wanna dance?"



I think he didn't have much respect for Hollis either. He would see him as a traitor for writing that book and so would not believe anything he said. And, on balance, traitor to their cause is way worse than an attempted rapist to Rorschach.



See, I think Rorschach was glad to see his mother go not because she was a prostitute but because she was cruel to him. He was willing to overlook the land ladies activities when he saw she was protecting her children from that life.

Has his mother been a prostitute and kind he would not have seen her death as good.
Not sure how would feel about Sally in that regard. Calling her a prostitute is a but harsh considering she wasn't one but maybe he sees her as a sell out of some sort. (is guarded. I'm twitching here. Insanely protective of Sally. You may have found my blind spot).



He was also prepared to ignore the Vietnamese lady until she scratched his face too.
What, some thing in Eddie's past makes him go nuts at the face scratch?
I don't think he's the vane sort myself - more man's man than pretty boy.

I do think he was going to rape Sally before the scratch, though there may have been a small chance at that stage she could have stopped him, but I think he wasn't going to hit her or be as rough. After the scratch he just snapped. Same as in Vietnam.



So do I. And, oddly, these are the two characters who are generally seen as the least capable of attachment to others and, especially in Blake's case, fellings at all.



An interesting idea though he would be aware HJ stepped in as no one did for Kitty.
Not that HJ wasn't a complete jerk to Sally but I doubt Rorschach would know that.
He does say it in direct response to Sally's specific accusation of the rape but maybe he meant more.

I'm not sure how much Rorschach feels he knows about the Minutemen actually.
He may have real Hollis' book but he clearly doesn't trust the mans word so he may well have been left to make up his own mind about these people based on very little.
Blake he turned into a hero. I wonder what he really made of the others?

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To Rorschach, Viedt was a whore for capitalizing on his mask status and being a sellout.... so it would make sense that he would think the same of Sally.

Laurie is definitely a whore, as her only job for 10 years or so is to screw Manhattan. She's paid to keep him happy in what ever ways he demands. She doesn't contribute to his research, and has no job skills or any other role to speak of besides being his live in pleasure machine. A couple of other characters, besides Rorschach comment on this negatively, and she herself seems to have no illusions about this either.

Hmmm, but perhaps a different sort of whore? Not the sort like his mother. One who who's who they are inside rather than their bodies (though Veidt never starred in a porno. Poor Sally).

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Selling their dignity for money.... same deal.

To us, yeah. But to Rorschach who saw his mother's lifestyle first hand?
His mental image of "prostitute" would be very specific.

But, then, to my surprise he uses the word to describe Veidt so I think your definition is accurate.

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